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[PREM FARE GONE] Mad-scl biz $280 return

[PREM FARE GONE] Mad-scl biz $280 return

Old Jun 24, 22, 4:06 am
  #976  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Originally Posted by palmanfr View Post
That's because LA does not charge YQ on their tickets. See fare structure of the examples below. Exactly the same dates and flights. One on IB stock and the other one on LA stock. See the difference? No YQ on LA. Confirmed when looking at the price details when trying to make a booking on the respective LATAM and IB websites...
So the fact the OTA did not charge me for a YQ on a LA-issued ticket is therefore normal. Booking on the same OTA a IB-issued ticket would have costed me the YQ on top of the fare. I don't think LA and IB are in a joint-venture on the South Atlantic routes (unlike AA/AY/BA/IB on the north atlantic - in that case YQ is always charged whatever the issuing airline is).
But even then, the fare in your example is 10 times the one you paid, again clearly an error so sale invalidated.
I consulted a consumer organisation, which is quite keen to attack airlines over minor issues, they don’t see a case here and told me to accept the refund and move on.
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Last edited by patvd; Jun 24, 22 at 4:34 am
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Old Jun 24, 22, 4:31 am
  #977  
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
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Originally Posted by patvd View Post
But even then, the fare in your example is 10 times the one you paid, again clearly an error so sale invalidated.
I consulted a consumer organisation, which is quite keen to attack airlines over minor issues, they dont see a case here and told me to accept the refund and move on.
Quick question, can you share which Consumer Organization told you that and if based in Spain.

What Im hearing is that we potentially have two issues if not more:

- Binding prices / offer on whichever website
- Binding contract: tickets paid, emitted
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Old Jun 24, 22, 4:44 am
  #978  
 
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Originally Posted by palmanfr View Post
That's because LA does not charge YQ on their tickets. See fare structure of the examples below. Exactly the same dates and flights. One on IB stock and the other one on LA stock. See the difference? No YQ on LA. Confirmed when looking at the price details when trying to make a booking on the respective LATAM and IB websites...
So the fact the OTA did not charge me for a YQ on a LA-issued ticket is therefore normal. Booking on the same OTA a IB-issued ticket would have costed me the YQ on top of the fare. I don't think LA and IB are in a joint-venture on the South Atlantic routes (unlike AA/AY/BA/IB on the north atlantic - in that case YQ is always charged whatever the issuing airline is).
I think LA and IB still have some sort of partnership on South American routes ex-MAD - they have code share flights on each other flights and even LA fares allow booking IB prime flights on long haul segments. I know the plan to have an extensive partnership with IAG/BA has been dropped, but LA-IB survived somehow. I did a quick google to find details whether it's Joint Business and profit sharing or just code share agreement, but haven't found anything concrete.
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Old Jun 24, 22, 4:48 am
  #979  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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So, I also received the cancellation email from Priceline. My booking is showing as CANCELLED on Priceline, but the booking is still pulling up fine on other places :P
- Iberia - showing all 3 legs as confirmed (MAD-SCL, SCL-LIM, LIM-MAD), I can change the seat for first leg
- Latam - it was the first to show error
- RJ / Finnair - showing all 3 legs confirmed (on RJ it does show the updated seat that I just changed)
- CheckMyTrip app - showing MAD-SCL and LIM-MAD (missing the SCL-LIM which Priceline told me was canceled earlier)
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Old Jun 24, 22, 4:58 am
  #980  
 
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Originally Posted by megaloman View Post
I think LA and IB still have some sort of partnership on South American routes ex-MAD - they have code share flights on each other flights and even LA fares allow booking IB prime flights on long haul segments. I know the plan to have an extensive partnership with IAG/BA has been dropped, but LA-IB survived somehow. I did a quick google to find details whether it's Joint Business and profit sharing or just code share agreement, but haven't found anything concrete.
If I recall correctly (but might be incorrect), LA wanted to join the Transatlantic joint-venture with IB, AA and BA, but the antitrust authorities did not really support this due to the fact this would have led to a quasi-monopoly situation, especially for flights between Spain and Latin America, so that did not go through. After this, LA, looking for some investors, decided to mingle with DL and therefore left OneWorld and stopped relationships with AA (upon request of DL most likely). They kept some code sharing agreements with IB on the transatlantic services, but not much more. They certainly do not share pricing - or inventory - unlike AA, AY, BA and IB do on the transatlantic JV. In my recollection (and I just also checked some eticket receipts I had with LATAM in 2016, 2018 and 2019), LA never charged for YQ, just the regular government and security taxes.
As a matter of fact, priceline (and other OTA's as well) was also showing fares on IB's direct flights (but also with some connections in EZE, LIM or GRU) for 900 Euros ish, and those would have certainly be issued on IB-stock at the same base fare as the 350 Euros LA-issued tickets but with the hefty 600 Euros YQ component, exclusive to IB tickets, on it.
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Last edited by palmanfr; Jun 24, 22 at 5:27 am
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Old Jun 24, 22, 5:02 am
  #981  
 
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Originally Posted by patvd View Post
From PL’s T&Cs:
YQ not charged is clearly an error, the sale can be invalidated, no ticket, no EU261, end of story.
Originally Posted by patvd View Post
But even then, the fare in your example is 10 times the one you paid, again clearly an error so sale invalidated.
I consulted a consumer organisation, which is quite keen to attack airlines over minor issues, they don’t see a case here and told me to accept the refund and move on.
And I can also find you tickets on the same route which exceed 10k and some which are at 2k. And I can also find you tickets at 1.2k on competing airlines. I am not questioning the overall price here (and you should not either), I am stating that the difference between what is seen as a "legit" 900-ish Euro IB-issued ticket and an "invalid" 350-ish Euro LA-issued ticket is that IB ALWAYS charges a YQ component (600-ish Euros on this route) and LA NEVER charges YQ. The base fare for those two tickets is overall the same.
So how can an airline or OTA invalidate a ticket because no YQ was charged if this particular airline NEVER charges any YQ ?
Btw, have you booked any tickets on this fare ? Which one ?
I am very intrigued about which customer organization you are talking about. Please share details, especially if based in Spain or Europe.
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Last edited by palmanfr; Jun 24, 22 at 5:07 am
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Old Jun 24, 22, 5:10 am
  #982  
 
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Originally Posted by kng86 View Post
So, I also received the cancellation email from Priceline. My booking is showing as CANCELLED on Priceline, but the booking is still pulling up fine on other places :P
- Iberia - showing all 3 legs as confirmed (MAD-SCL, SCL-LIM, LIM-MAD), I can change the seat for first leg
- Latam - it was the first to show error
- RJ / Finnair - showing all 3 legs confirmed (on RJ it does show the updated seat that I just changed)
- CheckMyTrip app - showing MAD-SCL and LIM-MAD (missing the SCL-LIM which Priceline told me was canceled earlier)
I would think that (1) the IB RJ and AY websites still have a cache version of your ticket or that (2) the axe is going to fall soon unfortunately. Yesterday my booking survived for 15 more minutes on the IB website after the priceline email was received, and my original seats got released shortly after according to ExpertFlyer. When is your travel date ?
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Old Jun 24, 22, 5:46 am
  #983  
 
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Originally Posted by bimbonello View Post
Oh come on man, your logic and examples are completely off and missing the point. The airline never DECIDED to sell the tickets at that price. You can pretend as much as you like but that doesn't change the fact that there was a human error with combination of OTAs dropping YQ. The airlines never LIKED the price. It wasn't valid pricepoint which they wanted to be selling for a week and then DECIDED that it's not the ideal price. Don't play dumb pretending that it was all intentional and now they reverted their decision. Nothing like that at all...
​​​​​​
If you like examples, try some which are more reflective of the situation, when there's a genuine error or mistake. Like if you went to an ATM, selected you wanted $100 but it errorneously gives you $500. You will then keep it and insist they decided to give you $500 and you're not giving anything back? Good luck.

Ridiculous. You all fill your boots spending time, money and effort fighting. Where you have potentially 4 parties involved, dropped YQ and 3 jurisdictions. Easy win.
Your ATM example is absurd. If the entire way through the booking process I was told my flight should be $1k but they only charged my credit card $350 then it would be an obvious mistake and I would totally accept paying more.

The price I paid was displayed across multiple booking platforms and is the same price that was charged to my card. The consumer is not required to look around for a higher price every time they make a purchase. In fact it is very common, if not normal, for consumers to shop around for a lower price!

Originally Posted by patvd View Post
The airline didnt sell the ticket for 300, Iberia was selling them for 1k (300 plus taxes), and it still looks like they are going to honour the majority of those.
The OTAs managed to drop the taxes via a combination of intermediate stops and the use of different carriers. Good luck in convincing a judge that you bought the ticket not knowing there was an error in the pricing.
So OTAs exist but the consumer is expected to compare the price to the direct purchase? You do realize there is almost always a discrepancy between price on OTAs vs Direct and its often the OTAs that are cheaper, right?

Are we subject to cancelation every time we book that way? Whats the threshold? If its a percentage I have bought Ryanair tickets on OTAs for $7 when they were $35 direct, why was that not a mistake?

Last edited by PbodyPhoto; Jun 24, 22 at 6:44 am
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Old Jun 24, 22, 5:56 am
  #984  
 
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Originally Posted by patvd View Post
The airline didn’t sell the ticket for 300, Iberia was selling them for 1k (300 plus taxes), and it still looks like they are going to honour the majority of those.
The OTAs managed to drop the taxes via a combination of intermediate stops and the use of different carriers. Good luck in convincing a judge that you bought the ticket not knowing there was an error in the pricing.
The OTA managed to get a cheaper rate by booking on LA stock, airline which does NOT charge YQ (Any government and security taxes were always charged correctly), and which is also the operating airline of some - if not all - of the segments. Call that a big hacking trick !.. It's not like the tickets were booked in Pakistani Rupees, on Air Zimbabwe stock for a ticket between Spain and South America...

(Edit : not to offend anyone here, you can replace "Air Zimbabwe" by any airline which does not operate flights between or within Europe and/or South America and "Pakistani Rupees" with any currency not typically used in Europe or South America)
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Last edited by palmanfr; Jun 24, 22 at 6:22 am
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Old Jun 24, 22, 6:59 am
  #985  
 
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If the OTA charges an incorrect price, isn't that between the OTA and the airline? I don't know about OTAs but a TA can override a price, intentionally charge an incorrect price, and issue a ticket. In that scenario the airline sends a debit memo to the TA and the TA is responsible.. they don't put it on the passenger.
That's why GDS's have pricing reimbursement guarantees, to give the TA confidence that if they don't manually override things the GDS company will be responsible for pricing mistakes, not the TA.

Since these are being cancelled across the board it seems plausible that LA didn't like the fare, and it's not an OTA mispricing issue at its core.
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Old Jun 24, 22, 7:04 am
  #986  
 
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If LA or IB is going to charge the OTA the "full price" (issue debit meno) it is almost guaranteed that the OTA will cancel the tickets (and most OTA have T&C covering situations like this allowing the OTA to cancel). No OTA is going to accept the bill for enabling pax to travel on these tickets.
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Old Jun 24, 22, 7:09 am
  #987  
 
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LATAM dropped the YQ, not the OTAs
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Old Jun 24, 22, 7:11 am
  #988  
 
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Originally Posted by PbodyPhoto View Post


So OTAs exist but the consumer is expected to compare the price to the direct purchase? You do realize there is almost always a discrepancy between price on OTAs vs Direct and its often the OTAs that are cheaper, right?

Are we subject to cancelation every time we book that way? Whats the threshold? If its a percentage I have bought Ryanair tickets on OTAs for $7 when they were $35 direct, why was that not a mistake?
Yes, Airlines and OTAs often have different pricing, but the OTA usually isn't charging 1/3 of the Airlines price.

The difference with the Ryanair example is that Ryanair often sell $7 tickets direct from their own website during their random sales. I'd be surprised if you could name a single occasion in the last couple of years where an airline has sold business class tickets at $300 between Europe and South America (I don't think it would cover the cost of fuel at present (only a portion of Iberia and LATAM fuel is hedged)).
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Old Jun 24, 22, 7:18 am
  #989  
 
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Originally Posted by Quail View Post
If the OTA charges an incorrect price, isn't that between the OTA and the airline? I don't know about OTAs but a TA can override a price, intentionally charge an incorrect price, and issue a ticket. In that scenario the airline sends a debit memo to the TA and the TA is responsible.. they don't put it on the passenger.
That's why GDS's have pricing reimbursement guarantees, to give the TA confidence that if they don't manually override things the GDS company will be responsible for pricing mistakes, not the TA.

Since these are being cancelled across the board it seems plausible that LA didn't like the fare, and it's not an OTA mispricing issue at its core.
Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
If LA or IB is going to charge the OTA the "full price" (issue debit meno) it is almost guaranteed that the OTA will cancel the tickets (and most OTA have T&C covering situations like this allowing the OTA to cancel). No OTA is going to accept the bill for enabling pax to travel on these tickets.
But here, the OTA charged the correct amount : they used the base fare which was available for the fare JDN0YNS0 between MAD (or other Spanish departure points) and SCL (or other Chilean destinations) at the time of booking and added the taxes to it for LA tickets and the same taxes + YQ for IB issued tickets. Some OTAs may have deducted a small rebate (like 10 euros or so) due to the fact it's an OTA to differentiate them from the prices charged by the airline website. So it's not the responsibility of the OTA if the fare was improperly filed by the airline, it's the responsibility of... the airline (or the airline subcontractor in charge of that job)
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Old Jun 24, 22, 7:20 am
  #990  
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
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An example with Booking on rental: https://partner.booking.com/en-gb/co...se-wrong-price

See the part where they say "extremely wrong"

They adhere the to rule of: the house always wins..
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