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(prem fare gone): *A: CDG-BNE 1050eur rt

(prem fare gone): *A: CDG-BNE 1050eur rt

Old Mar 28, 2020, 12:04 pm
  #136  
 
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A portion of my flights in late May have been cancelled by Swiss Air (full trip CDG-ZRH-HKG-AKL-HKG-ZRH-CDG; CDG-ZRH-HKG cancelled). I'm thinking of rescheduling to October. Does anyone know if the new flights have to be in the original/same fare bucket, ie P, in order to avoid paying extras? Thanks.
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Old Mar 28, 2020, 12:49 pm
  #137  
 
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Originally Posted by sllee
A portion of my flights in late May have been cancelled by Swiss Air (full trip CDG-ZRH-HKG-AKL-HKG-ZRH-CDG; CDG-ZRH-HKG cancelled). I'm thinking of rescheduling to October. Does anyone know if the new flights have to be in the original/same fare bucket, ie P, in order to avoid paying extras? Thanks.
LX will charge any fare difference compared to the new P fare at time of rebooking, so yes, it has to be in P, and even if P is available and at time of rebooking the new P fare is priced higher than your original P, this difference will need to be collected. Otherwise you'll need to rebook to +/- 3 days of your original flight date to avoid fare difference.

Since your flight is cancelled, if you are quoted a ridiculous fare difference, just ask for a full refund to your original form of payment (not voucher), and you might need to stand your ground to push for cash refund - you are legally entitled whatever you are told by LX.
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Old Mar 28, 2020, 2:17 pm
  #138  
 
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Originally Posted by newflyer530
LX will charge any fare difference compared to the new P fare at time of rebooking, so yes, it has to be in P, and even if P is available and at time of rebooking the new P fare is priced higher than your original P, this difference will need to be collected. Otherwise you'll need to rebook to +/- 3 days of your original flight date to avoid fare difference.

Since your flight is cancelled, if you are quoted a ridiculous fare difference, just ask for a full refund to your original form of payment (not voucher), and you might need to stand your ground to push for cash refund - you are legally entitled whatever you are told by LX.
Thanks, newflyer530. So, this is like a new scam invented by the airlines. It's kind of..."we'll waive the cancellation or change fees, but we'll get you on the juicy fare difference". Simply not fair because I didn't ask to cancel or change. LX cancelled and I am forced to rearrange. Maybe unfair to say, but it seems like it is better for the airlines to advertise great fares for a few days and get in some cash flow, then a week later, cancel the flights. Pasengers are then forced to choose new flights at much higher fares and pay the difference. In my case, will be well over 100% that I originally paid.
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Old Mar 28, 2020, 2:21 pm
  #139  
 
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It’s not the airline’s fault either. And you knew about the risk of a cancellation when you booked. I actually think they knew damn well that most flights would eventually be canceled, otherwise they wouldn’t even have filed the fare.
Just take the refund. They’ll be happy for the free loan.
(And that’s why I didn’t book.)
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 6:52 am
  #140  
 
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I read EU law that if the flight is cancelled then the airline have to rebook for free. They may have to limit non LH group flights (to originally booked classes etc) but anything else shall be quite flexible. Where you get information from that the fare difference will apply?
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 6:54 am
  #141  
 
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Originally Posted by ChocolateFactory
Its not the airlines fault either. ...
It does not matter. A force majeure only saves an airline from the need to pay a compensation.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 7:08 am
  #142  
 
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No, they only have to rebook +/- 3 days, but including other carriers.
If that can’t be accommodated, then they can simply cancel for a full refund.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 7:43 am
  #143  
 
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Originally Posted by ChocolateFactory
No, they only have to rebook +/- 3 days, but including other carriers.
If that cant be accommodated, then they can simply cancel for a full refund.
Where did you get your +/- 3 days reference from?

In EC261 it is explained as following (important points in red highlighted by me):

Reimbursement, re-routing or rebooking in the event of cancellation

The airline must offer you, on a one off basis, a choice between:
  1. the reimbursement of your ticket and, if you have a connecting flight, a return flight to the airport of departure at the earliest opportunity
  2. re-routing to your final destination at the earliest opportunity or,
  3. re-routing at a later date at your convenience under comparable transport conditions, subject to the availability of seats.
As soon as you have chosen one of these three options, you no longer have rights in relation to the other two options. However, the airline may still have to provide compensation depending on the distance of your flight and the length of the delay past your original planned arrival time.
  • If the airline does not comply with its obligation to offer re-routing or return under comparable transport conditions at the earliest opportunity, it has to reimburse your flight costs.
  • If the airline does not offer you the choice between reimbursement and re-routing but decides unilaterally to reimburse your original ticket, you are entitled to an additional reimbursement of the price difference with the new ticket (under comparable transport conditions).
  • If you booked an outbound and a return flight separately with different airlines and the outbound flight is cancelled, reimbursement is only due for the cancelled flight.
If the outbound and return flights are operated by different airlines, but were part of a single reservation, in the event that the outbound flight was cancelled, you have the following rights:
  • Compensation
  • A choice between the reimbursement of your entire ticket (outbound and return flights) or re-routing on another flight for the outbound flight
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 7:55 am
  #144  
 
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I spoke to two different attorneys in Germany regarding that exact clause. They both said that "re-routing at a later date at your convenience" does not mean "anytime you like". The intention (and legal practice) is that when the airline offers you a 5 AM flight (for instance), you can say "That's too early, I'd rather fly the evening before". It does not mean "I'd prefer to fly half a year from now". In practice, it's +/- 3 days (anything reasonable). That's also what Expedia told me.
You can however, demand that they rebook you on another carrier. But if no one is flying, I guess you're out of luck (it explicitly says "subject to the availability of seats").
Of course, some airlines may go above and beyond (like Finnair is doing at the moment), but they don't have to.

I asked the lawyers regarding my cancelled AY flights to CAN/HKG.
There may have been some specific circumstances because there were two reasons for the cancellation (the virus + them dropping some destinations altogether), but I doubt that. They were quite clear about this.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 8:01 am
  #145  
 
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Originally Posted by ChocolateFactory
I spoke to two different attorneys in Germany regarding that exact clause. They both said that "re-routing at a later date at your convenience" does not mean "anytime you like". The intention (and legal practice) is that when the airline offers you a 5 AM flight (for instance), you can say "That's too early, I'd rather fly the evening before". It does not mean "I'd prefer to fly half a year from now". In practice, it's +/- 3 days (anything reasonable). That's also what Expedia told me.
You can however, demand that they rebook you on another carrier. But if no one is flying, I guess you're out of luck (it explicitly says "subject to the availability of seats").
Of course, some airlines may go above and beyond (like Finnair is doing at the moment), but they don't have to.

I asked the lawyers regarding my cancelled AY flights to CAN/HKG.
There may have been some specific circumstances because there were two reasons for the cancellation (the virus + them dropping some destinations altogether), but I doubt that. They were quite clear about this.
With such interpretation I don't see any practical difference between option 2 and 3, hence it makes me think this wasn't the intention of option 3. I'll research the explanations document provided by EC additionally.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 8:14 am
  #146  
 
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I don't disagree - but then again, two lawyers confirmed this independently of one another, and the Expedia agent said the same thing.
But please keep us posted. Maybe call a Dutch or French lawyer as well? There could be a difference in how different countries interpret the EU directive.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 8:19 am
  #147  
 
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Originally Posted by ChocolateFactory
I don't disagree - but then again, two lawyers confirmed this independently of one another, and the Expedia agent said the same thing.
But please keep us posted. Maybe call a Dutch or French lawyer as well? There could be a difference in how different countries interpret the EU directive.
Well, I don't face this situation right away, but if I do, I'll definitely check it out. In BA's EC261 thread understanding seems to correspond to what we both believe it means:
Q6: The alternative flights I have been offered are not very attractive. I would rather give up on this journey and fly again in a months time. Can I do that?
A6: Yes, the Regulation provides for a third option, beyond refund and immediate rerouting: you can ask to be re-routed to your final destination at a later date of your convenience. This, however, is subject to there being availability in the same booking class as your original ticket. The Regulation does not specify a deadline by which the flight has to be taken. It is reasonable to assume that you can book any flight currently open to reservation (i.e. normally 330 days ahead) subject to availability in the relevant booking class.
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Old Mar 29, 2020, 11:49 am
  #148  
 
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The Swiss policy for schedule change:
http://app.lufthansaexperts.com/3/c/...3895.0.0a6253f

Paragraph 4.1 - you can change your date by several months as long as it is the same booking classes as a routing published for the same fare. You can get an upgrade to "higher booking classes" only a few days before/after original departure.

4.1 Alternatives to be offered by the Travel Agent
4.1.1 Alternative 1
Rebooking onto an alternate LX flight/LX flight connection (LX flight number and LX operation):
 Rebook in the originally ticketed booking class (same RBD) within ticket validity.
 If the original booking class is not available, the next higher available booking class (RBD) within the same travel compartment may be used only if the new flight departure date is within 7 days before or after the original flight date.
 No SWISS approval is required – mind correct E-Ticket/PNR handling (see chapter 5).
4.1.2 Alternative 2
Rebooking onto a combined routing LX flight (LX flight number and LX operation) / LHG flight connection (LHG flight number/LHG operation):
 Rebook in the originally ticketed booking class (same RBD) within ticket validity.
 If the original booking class is not available, next higher available booking class (RBD) within the same travel compartment may be used only if the new flight departure date is within 3 days before or after the original flight date.
 No SWISS approval is required – mind correct E-Ticket/PNR handling (see chapter 5).
4.1.3 Alternative 3
Rebooking onto an alternate LX marketing flight number (codeshare flight; non-LX operated):
 Rebook in the originally ticketed booking class (same RBD) within ticket validity – rebooking to other booking classes (RBDs) is not permitted and will result in an ADM.
 No SWISS approval is required – mind correct E-Ticket/PNR handling (see chapter 5).
4.1.4 Alternative 4
Rebooking onto an alternate flight/flight connection onto LH group (LH/OS/SN/WK/4U flight number operated by LH/OS/SN/WK/4U) and AC or UA (AC/UA flight number operated by AC/UA):
 Rebook in the originally ticketed booking class (same RBD) within ticket validity.
 If the original booking class (RBD) is not available, the next higher available booking class (RBD) within the same compartment may be used only if the new flight departure date is within 3 days before or after the original flight date.
 No SWISS approval is required – mind correct E-Ticket/PNR handling (see chapter 5).
4.1.5 Alternative 5
Rebooking onto an LX flight number (LX or LHG operation) / OAL connecting flight:
 Rebooking to such a new routing is allowed without prior SWISS approval as long as the new routing is part of the filed routing table of the respective fare.
 Rebook in the originally ticketed booking class (same RBD) within ticket validity.
 If the original booking class (RBD) is not available, next higher available booking class (RBD) on the LX/LHG flight within the same compartment may be used only if the new flight departure date is within 3 days before or after the original flight date.
 The OAL flight must always be booked in the applicable booking class (RBD) of the fare, except for UA/AC (see alternative 4.1.4).
 No SWISS approval is required – mind correct E-Ticket/PNR handling (see chapter 5).
4.1.6 Alternative 1-5 not feasible
If none of the alternatives 4.1.1 to 4.1.5 is available or accepted by the passenger, please contact your SWISS representation.
There might be other alternatives, e.g. on Star Alliance Partner Airlines. However these are only to be authorized and handled by SWISS. In case none of the listed alternatives is accepted by the passenger, the ticket can be refunded. See chapter 6.
What bothers me is paragraph 4.2: "Any segment of the ETKT which is not directly affected by the SKCHG must remain unchanged and transferred as such to the new ticket."
So this would mean that if you have a FRA ZRH FRA ticket, FRA ZRH is cancelled, you can put this FRA ZRH to later but cannot touch the ZRH FRA, meaning you can use the coupons out of sequence. Not sure how they would interpret this rule in case you want to postpone the full trip due to a cancellation.
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Old Mar 30, 2020, 9:04 am
  #149  
 
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OK so for now we can at least rule out an option when LX/ LH/ OS will reprice the journey using current fares (ie the case where there is a fare difference even if same booking classes are used). Well better than nothing!
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Old Mar 30, 2020, 9:39 am
  #150  
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OK - but let's see. Somehow I got the suspicion that LX/LH/OS is not going to let you rebook for a future date without recalculating the fare, i.e. in reality you get a refund as a voucher for future travel. But by all means try it; do report back!
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