Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 23, 2015, 7:58 pm
#4966
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 12 stops from ORD
Programs: UA, AA, DL
Posts: 992
The only thing I'd be interested in seeing are the communications between UA and DOT.
For those who might make the request, I wouldn't waste time requesting a waiver as I can't imagine there's much to produce. Just tailor your request narrowly (i.e., don't ask for a copy of all the complaints that were filed
).
For those who might make the request, I wouldn't waste time requesting a waiver as I can't imagine there's much to produce. Just tailor your request narrowly (i.e., don't ask for a copy of all the complaints that were filed
).
Last edited by Pat89339; Feb 23, 2015 at 8:23 pm Reason: Remove deleted quote and response
Feb 23, 2015, 8:36 pm
#4967
Moderator: Mileage Run, United Airlines; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The City/Honolulu
Programs: UA 3MM; Hyatt Glob*****; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,473
FINAL MODERATOR WARNING!
Clearly some posters do not feel the rules of posting apply to them. I have just deleted dozens of posts that violate multiple Rules.
Before hitting the Submit Reply button, familiarize yourself with the Rules. You can find a copy here.
Pay attention to Rules 5, 12, 13-17.
Pay special attention to Rule 23, which I post in full below:
23. Consequences Of Rule Violations And Discipline
Violations of FlyerTalk Rules subject you to one or more of the following consequences:
Pat89339
Moderator, Mileage Run Forum
Clearly some posters do not feel the rules of posting apply to them. I have just deleted dozens of posts that violate multiple Rules.
Before hitting the Submit Reply button, familiarize yourself with the Rules. You can find a copy here.
Pay attention to Rules 5, 12, 13-17.
Pay special attention to Rule 23, which I post in full below:
23. Consequences Of Rule Violations And Discipline
Violations of FlyerTalk Rules subject you to one or more of the following consequences:
- edit or deletion of the concerned post or thread;
- reduction of post count;
- exclusion from posting in specified forums; and
- formal warning, suspension or revocation of FlyerTalk membership and posting privileges.
Pat89339
Moderator, Mileage Run Forum
Feb 23, 2015, 8:46 pm
#4968
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,780
Out of interest I'm guessing this is true but never thought it through. Are all pax regardless of nationality protected by EU261? I know that this isn't analogous to the DOT regulations we have been quoting but limiting this to EU pax only would be a great way to aid the beleaguered EU economies.
I read the bad faith part of the ruling as obiter. I hope it will be considered bad precedent as nothing in the rules say good faith is a requirement to be given protection under the rules.
The main part of the ruling - the locality/residency requirement - flabbergasted me.
As a foreigner, am I to take it that I will not be protected by US laws and regulations whenever a US airline (or hotel, travel agency, bank or investment company, educational institution or retailer etc.) markets an offer to me here in Hong Kong?
Also, in the same spirit that we don't kill your diplomats to make sure you don't kill ours, are we allowed to respond tit-for-tat? Is our CAD/CAAC, Tourism Board, Travel Agent Registry, HKMA, SFC or Police not meant to respond to scams/cons/other non-compliance when non-residents are involved - specifically, when Americans are involved because your regulatory agencies won't protect our residents?
I really feel sorry for the US FTers here, they've been doubly done over. I also wonder would your State Department be concerned with your DOT issuing such a ruling.
I did consider the possibility too but the lack of a US website may lead to a future regulator (one less airline-friendly than the current DOT) deeming all overseas-facing websites of United are US websites.
Last edited by percysmith; Feb 23, 2015 at 9:02 pm
Feb 23, 2015, 8:48 pm
#4969
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: DL PM; IHG PlatAmb; Hilton Dia; Marriott Plat; Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 7,310
Although no one is likely to pursue criminal action, the relevant statute would be 18 U.S.C. § 1030, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
Feb 23, 2015, 9:04 pm
#4970
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: BOS
Posts: 814
Thanks to circular firing squad (people in on the deal) and the snipers (those not in on the deal), the DOT and United had plenty of theories and evidence to rule in a contrary fashion.
Rule #1 as always is: Don't call the airline.
Henceforth, I propose Rule #2 is: Don't use the term "Error" or "Mistake" in posting about good sale fares on FT. Many of the bloggers have already adopted this practice and we at FT should follow.
The truth is, it does us no good to make the logical leap that a fare is in mistake or an error. Both mistake and non-mistake good fares disappear quickly, so no compelling reason for us to publicly make that conclusion/judgment call.
Furthermore, there CERTAINLY is no reason for us to offer up on a silver platter theories and excuses for not honoring a fare. Such efforts seem aimed only at stoking one's own ego and is very damaging to the community at large and should be frowned upon. Let the airlines and/or a hostile DOT do their own research and thinking. United showed itself to be very stupid in this case (most clearly when they included the "You can purchase this on United.com for the correct price" which indicated a clear post-purchase price increase, and then removed that phrase in later versions), but they managed to win, thanks probably in no small part to their huge crowd-sourced, troll-funded efforts here on FT.
I'm not saying the DOT would have ruled differently without the "mistake fare" gloating and the armchair lawyers, but it was undoubtedly a big factor. Let's do better next time.
Rule #1 as always is: Don't call the airline.
Henceforth, I propose Rule #2 is: Don't use the term "Error" or "Mistake" in posting about good sale fares on FT. Many of the bloggers have already adopted this practice and we at FT should follow.
The truth is, it does us no good to make the logical leap that a fare is in mistake or an error. Both mistake and non-mistake good fares disappear quickly, so no compelling reason for us to publicly make that conclusion/judgment call.
Furthermore, there CERTAINLY is no reason for us to offer up on a silver platter theories and excuses for not honoring a fare. Such efforts seem aimed only at stoking one's own ego and is very damaging to the community at large and should be frowned upon. Let the airlines and/or a hostile DOT do their own research and thinking. United showed itself to be very stupid in this case (most clearly when they included the "You can purchase this on United.com for the correct price" which indicated a clear post-purchase price increase, and then removed that phrase in later versions), but they managed to win, thanks probably in no small part to their huge crowd-sourced, troll-funded efforts here on FT.
I'm not saying the DOT would have ruled differently without the "mistake fare" gloating and the armchair lawyers, but it was undoubtedly a big factor. Let's do better next time.
Feb 23, 2015, 9:39 pm
#4971
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: SYDNEY
Programs: *A Gold, HH dia,Hyatt plat,Sixt PLAT,QF , EY Gold
Posts: 1,890
Once again after the United 4 mile deal I stood behind the USA government to uphold the law and find it basically a lot of talk and no action. It seems that united and this government department have a special hidden hand shake behind closed doors to cover them everytime they make a mistake.
I hope one day il get s special offer that allows me to get a refund on a non-refundable booking.
I hope one day il get s special offer that allows me to get a refund on a non-refundable booking.
Feb 24, 2015, 12:10 am
#4972
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 43
Thanks to circular firing squad (people in on the deal) and the snipers (those not in on the deal), the DOT and United had plenty of theories and evidence to rule in a contrary fashion.
Rule #1 as always is: Don't call the airline.
Henceforth, I propose Rule #2 is: Don't use the term "Error" or "Mistake" in posting about good sale fares on FT. Many of the bloggers have already adopted this practice and we at FT should follow.
The truth is, it does us no good to make the logical leap that a fare is in mistake or an error. Both mistake and non-mistake good fares disappear quickly, so no compelling reason for us to publicly make that conclusion/judgment call.
Furthermore, there CERTAINLY is no reason for us to offer up on a silver platter theories and excuses for not honoring a fare. Such efforts seem aimed only at stoking one's own ego and is very damaging to the community at large and should be frowned upon. Let the airlines and/or a hostile DOT do their own research and thinking. United showed itself to be very stupid in this case (most clearly when they included the "You can purchase this on United.com for the correct price" which indicated a clear post-purchase price increase, and then removed that phrase in later versions), but they managed to win, thanks probably in no small part to their huge crowd-sourced, troll-funded efforts here on FT.
I'm not saying the DOT would have ruled differently without the "mistake fare" gloating and the armchair lawyers, but it was undoubtedly a big factor. Let's do better next time.
Rule #1 as always is: Don't call the airline.
Henceforth, I propose Rule #2 is: Don't use the term "Error" or "Mistake" in posting about good sale fares on FT. Many of the bloggers have already adopted this practice and we at FT should follow.
The truth is, it does us no good to make the logical leap that a fare is in mistake or an error. Both mistake and non-mistake good fares disappear quickly, so no compelling reason for us to publicly make that conclusion/judgment call.
Furthermore, there CERTAINLY is no reason for us to offer up on a silver platter theories and excuses for not honoring a fare. Such efforts seem aimed only at stoking one's own ego and is very damaging to the community at large and should be frowned upon. Let the airlines and/or a hostile DOT do their own research and thinking. United showed itself to be very stupid in this case (most clearly when they included the "You can purchase this on United.com for the correct price" which indicated a clear post-purchase price increase, and then removed that phrase in later versions), but they managed to win, thanks probably in no small part to their huge crowd-sourced, troll-funded efforts here on FT.
I'm not saying the DOT would have ruled differently without the "mistake fare" gloating and the armchair lawyers, but it was undoubtedly a big factor. Let's do better next time.
Whatever the length of this thread, DOT only had to piece together a few facts--US buyers paying in Danish currency for flights not even originating in Denmark. Those facts were all apparent from the complaints filed with the DOT. The Department needed no help to come up with their bad faith reasoning.
Feb 24, 2015, 12:12 am
#4973
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bangkok or San Francisco
Programs: United 1k, Marriott Lifetime PE, Former DL Gold, Former SQ Solitaire, HH Gold
Posts: 11,886
Bottom line to all of this is:
There are times in life when mistakes are made. Everyone does it. Trying to jump on someone else when they make a mistake and personally profit from it at their expense is wrong, IMO. There was clearly an error in the calculation when paying for the fare. Everyone saw that. I'm happy to see that DOT used some common sense in resolving this.
There are times in life when mistakes are made. Everyone does it. Trying to jump on someone else when they make a mistake and personally profit from it at their expense is wrong, IMO. There was clearly an error in the calculation when paying for the fare. Everyone saw that. I'm happy to see that DOT used some common sense in resolving this.
Feb 24, 2015, 12:45 am
#4975
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Londinium
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 929
The bottom line is it was an imperfect set of facts and an imperfect ruling. Had the currency conversion factor included another zerio, and these flights were selling for £500 instead of £50, they still would've been a mistake and still way below market price. Would the result have been the same? Would the finger waggers be so motivated? Yet it would've been a mistake fare nonetheless.
Which brings me back to my concern. There's nothing stopping UA from trying to do a quiet flash sale thinking they are being a first mover in a market, and when the competition doesn't bite they can come say "whoopsy. Mistake Fare!"
Which brings me back to my concern. There's nothing stopping UA from trying to do a quiet flash sale thinking they are being a first mover in a market, and when the competition doesn't bite they can come say "whoopsy. Mistake Fare!"
Feb 24, 2015, 1:29 am
#4977
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Programs: Emirates Skywards, SAS, Krisflyer, Royal Orchid Plus
Posts: 261
Feb 24, 2015, 1:34 am
#4978
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SEA once more (previously CDG and NRT)
Programs: Former DL DM and UA 1k, now a J class free agent (UA Gold, AS MVP Gold)
Posts: 2,450
Once I'm back from vacation next week , I plan on continuing to fight this. The DOT broke their own rules ( it says to or from). As a US citizen living in the EU, I did not misrepresent or manipulate the system to purchase this fare. I'll be filing a rebuttal with the DOT and contacting my Senators as the DOT is not properly doing its job.
Feb 24, 2015, 1:45 am
#4980
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
The bottom line is it was an imperfect set of facts and an imperfect ruling. Had the currency conversion factor included another zerio, and these flights were selling for £500 instead of £50, they still would've been a mistake and still way below market price. Would the result have been the same? Would the finger waggers be so motivated? Yet it would've been a mistake fare nonetheless.
Which brings me back to my concern. There's nothing stopping UA from trying to do a quiet flash sale thinking they are being a first mover in a market, and when the competition doesn't bite they can come say "whoopsy. Mistake Fare!"
Which brings me back to my concern. There's nothing stopping UA from trying to do a quiet flash sale thinking they are being a first mover in a market, and when the competition doesn't bite they can come say "whoopsy. Mistake Fare!"
The first thing you must always remember about this fare is that United was able to demonstrate two things about it-- (1) that it really was a mistake, not a quickie fare sale (the erroneous exchange rate proved that), and (2) that the fares were so low that reasonable purchasers would know it (Global First, a product which sells for many thousands of dollars, offered for a few hundred bucks on many routes).
But if an airline tries to use this ruling to play games and take back a real trial balloon sale fare, (1) it will have a great difficulty establishing it was a mistake (as there will be no evidence of anything like the exchange rate problem here) and (2) the fare will be unlikely to be as many orders of magnitude away from a real fare as this one was.
And the reality is, even with a mistake fare, the closer you get to a situation where users could reasonably believe the thing is real, the more likely the DOT is going to enforce its rule. Not only that, but the legal department at the airline, if it is doing its job, will tell the airline to enforce the fare in the first place.
This was a case with very bad facts, and the ruling was certainly one of the plausible outcomes to it. But don't confuse a ruling based on bad facts with a broad principle that will forever give consumers who purchase low fares the shaft. It is not that. Another case, at some point, will come down the pike where the purchasers did nothing more than see a bargain fare listed on websites and claim it, without having to switch currencies or billing addresses, or anything else. And at that point, there's nothing in the DOT ruling in this case that will or should stop the DOT from enforcing the rule against post-purchase price increases there. The DOT has, very notably, not repealed this rule despite floating commentary indicating that it was under consideration. I suspect they still believe it plays a role and DO NOT want to move to a system where airlines can rescind ticketed airfares in a situation where the purchasers don't actually know that the fares were a mistake.