Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 14, 2015, 4:19 pm
#3811
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YOW
Posts: 2,351
THIS.
United is not losing nearly as much money as you'd think if they honored this. UA employees would hate this because the inventory is coming straight out of "employee class" -- AKA, NRSA space in GF.
GF is primarily upgrades, awards tickets and NSRA.
Now, the LH tickets would hurt UA a bit, but you will never convince me that they sell most of their GF seats. Doesn't happen.
United is not losing nearly as much money as you'd think if they honored this. UA employees would hate this because the inventory is coming straight out of "employee class" -- AKA, NRSA space in GF.
GF is primarily upgrades, awards tickets and NSRA.
Now, the LH tickets would hurt UA a bit, but you will never convince me that they sell most of their GF seats. Doesn't happen.
Feb 14, 2015, 4:54 pm
#3812
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4
You seem mighty confident about the sort of claim that lawyers constantly tell new or inexperienced clients tends to be a weak one-- that an adjudicator should rely on an overly-literalistic reading of legal language to effectuate an unjust result that could never have constituted the mutual intent of the parties, using legal rules that were created for a completely different purpose.
I'm not saying this never wins, but if I were to define the difference between the legal views of civil litigators and the rest of the population, I'd fix it right here-- civil litigators view this sort of claim as the second weakest possible claim (with the only weaker one being where the literal language of the statute doesn't even support the claim or a case precedent rejects it), whereas the rest of the population seems to think that what courts and regulators love to do is rule in favor of people based on technicalities despite it being totally out of whack with everyone's intent in the matter.
Feb 14, 2015, 5:19 pm
#3813
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Gold (OWS)
Posts: 528
Feb 14, 2015, 5:22 pm
#3814
Join Date: Nov 2005
Programs: Flying Blue Gold, Air Berlin Gold, Etihad Silver (bad move)
Posts: 420
You seem mighty confident about the sort of claim that lawyers constantly tell new or inexperienced clients tends to be a weak one-- that an adjudicator should rely on an overly-literalistic reading of legal language to effectuate an unjust result that could never have constituted the mutual intent of the parties, using legal rules that were created for a completely different purpose.
I'm not saying this never wins, but if I were to define the difference between the legal views of civil litigators and the rest of the population, I'd fix it right here-- civil litigators view this sort of claim as the second weakest possible claim (with the only weaker one being where the literal language of the statute doesn't even support the claim or a case precedent rejects it), whereas the rest of the population seems to think that what courts and regulators love to do is rule in favor of people based on technicalities despite it being totally out of whack with everyone's intent in the matter.
I'm not saying this never wins, but if I were to define the difference between the legal views of civil litigators and the rest of the population, I'd fix it right here-- civil litigators view this sort of claim as the second weakest possible claim (with the only weaker one being where the literal language of the statute doesn't even support the claim or a case precedent rejects it), whereas the rest of the population seems to think that what courts and regulators love to do is rule in favor of people based on technicalities despite it being totally out of whack with everyone's intent in the matter.
Complete gibberish.
Feb 14, 2015, 5:33 pm
#3815
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SAT
Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR
Posts: 5,898
The whole issue rests on whether or not United can cry 'mistake' to DOT and be allowed to void our contracts, if we fly we fly on the contracts we entered into when purchasing our flights, it's not a case of new contracts suddenly coming into existence if DOT rule that we can fly.
Maybe I am dense, but I thought the rule says the exact opposite.
Feb 14, 2015, 5:51 pm
#3816
Join Date: Aug 2013
Programs: AA EXP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 273
You seem mighty confident about the sort of claim that lawyers constantly tell new or inexperienced clients tends to be a weak one-- that an adjudicator should rely on an overly-literalistic reading of legal language to effectuate an unjust result that could never have constituted the mutual intent of the parties, using legal rules that were created for a completely different purpose.
I'm not saying this never wins, but if I were to define the difference between the legal views of civil litigators and the rest of the population, I'd fix it right here-- civil litigators view this sort of claim as the second weakest possible claim (with the only weaker one being where the literal language of the statute doesn't even support the claim or a case precedent rejects it), whereas the rest of the population seems to think that what courts and regulators love to do is rule in favor of people based on technicalities despite it being totally out of whack with everyone's intent in the matter.
I'm not saying this never wins, but if I were to define the difference between the legal views of civil litigators and the rest of the population, I'd fix it right here-- civil litigators view this sort of claim as the second weakest possible claim (with the only weaker one being where the literal language of the statute doesn't even support the claim or a case precedent rejects it), whereas the rest of the population seems to think that what courts and regulators love to do is rule in favor of people based on technicalities despite it being totally out of whack with everyone's intent in the matter.
Feb 14, 2015, 6:27 pm
#3817
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LHR
Programs: M&M,HH Gold,Accor Plat.,Priority Club Plat. Ambassador,Club Carlson Gold,Marriott Gold,GHA Plat.
Posts: 1,627
about the billing address, i really don't understand why we still have to discuss about it!
you can set any desired billing address, e.g. if i'm going to stay e.g in MEL for the next 6 months, i will put my actual billing address. Easy.
The billing address is used to send the credit card statement every 30 days (even if 95% is made via email) and in case you want deduct your expenses on your tax declaration at the end of the year . nothing more.
An example? try to go on amazon or in any other website that sells something: set your actual delivery address in order to have the goods delivered at your door and then set a DK billing address, The transaction will be completed, you'll receive your goods and Amazon will issue a receipt that will report a DK billing address.
Many years ago the billing address was sometimes used to verify the transaction (i mean that credit card numbers, cardholder name and billing address had to match) but since now we have the mastercard secur code or the verified by visa and so on, this is not necessary anymore.
you can set any desired billing address, e.g. if i'm going to stay e.g in MEL for the next 6 months, i will put my actual billing address. Easy.
The billing address is used to send the credit card statement every 30 days (even if 95% is made via email) and in case you want deduct your expenses on your tax declaration at the end of the year . nothing more.
An example? try to go on amazon or in any other website that sells something: set your actual delivery address in order to have the goods delivered at your door and then set a DK billing address, The transaction will be completed, you'll receive your goods and Amazon will issue a receipt that will report a DK billing address.
Many years ago the billing address was sometimes used to verify the transaction (i mean that credit card numbers, cardholder name and billing address had to match) but since now we have the mastercard secur code or the verified by visa and so on, this is not necessary anymore.
Feb 14, 2015, 6:47 pm
#3818
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Upper Sternistan
Posts: 10,041
about the billing address, i really don't understand why we still have to discuss about it!
you can set any desired billing address, e.g. if i'm going to stay e.g in MEL for the next 6 months, i will put my actual billing address. Easy.
The billing address is used to send the credit card statement every 30 days (even if 95% is made via email) and in case you want deduct your expenses on your tax declaration at the end of the year . nothing more.
An example? try to go on amazon or in any other website that sells something: set your actual delivery address in order to have the goods delivered at your door and then set a DK billing address, The transaction will be completed, you'll receive your goods and Amazon will issue a receipt that will report a DK billing address.
Many years ago the billing address was sometimes used to verify the transaction (i mean that credit card numbers, cardholder name and billing address had to match) but since now we have the mastercard secur code or the verified by visa and so on, this is not necessary anymore.
you can set any desired billing address, e.g. if i'm going to stay e.g in MEL for the next 6 months, i will put my actual billing address. Easy.
The billing address is used to send the credit card statement every 30 days (even if 95% is made via email) and in case you want deduct your expenses on your tax declaration at the end of the year . nothing more.
An example? try to go on amazon or in any other website that sells something: set your actual delivery address in order to have the goods delivered at your door and then set a DK billing address, The transaction will be completed, you'll receive your goods and Amazon will issue a receipt that will report a DK billing address.
Many years ago the billing address was sometimes used to verify the transaction (i mean that credit card numbers, cardholder name and billing address had to match) but since now we have the mastercard secur code or the verified by visa and so on, this is not necessary anymore.
AVS (address verification system) is still alive and well for many online transactions.
Feb 14, 2015, 6:54 pm
#3819
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LHR
Programs: M&M,HH Gold,Accor Plat.,Priority Club Plat. Ambassador,Club Carlson Gold,Marriott Gold,GHA Plat.
Posts: 1,627
Personally i use one of my credit card in a website to buy some services every 15 days; since the website doesn't give the possibility to select other address than the UK , everytime i use the UK one to complete my transactions. Never had a problem!
Last edited by Paul4Travel; Feb 15, 2015 at 3:47 am
Feb 14, 2015, 7:15 pm
#3821
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
A half competent attorney would know that principles of contract interpretation are irrelevant to regulatory interpretation.
You are repeatedly trying to lend an air of authority to your claims by professing to be an experienced litigator. Since you've voluntarily opened the door to your credentials, nothing should stop you from sharing your name with us. Unless, of course, you're on the clock for United.
You are repeatedly trying to lend an air of authority to your claims by professing to be an experienced litigator. Since you've voluntarily opened the door to your credentials, nothing should stop you from sharing your name with us. Unless, of course, you're on the clock for United.
2. My identity is not exactly concealed and I am sure people can determine who I am if they wish to.
3. That said, I don't understand what my identity has to do with this issue. I am making legal arguments. If they are wrong, it shouldn't be difficult to refute them and my identity has nothing to do with it.
I find it weird that some people here not only think they are right (understandable) but think the only people in the world who might conclude their legal position is weak are folks working for United.
Feb 14, 2015, 7:30 pm
#3822
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: San Antonio
Programs: AS MVP
Posts: 2,276
Reservation ***** was cancelled and the value of your ticket can be applied to future travel on United Airlines.
I'm not saying I have all the answers to this, but if the DOT lets UA completely off the hook it's a sad day for purchasers of travel.
Feb 14, 2015, 7:37 pm
#3823
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
Nonsense.saidlines are required to offer full refunds on tickets that originate in the U.S. These did not. Hence the email for one of these tickets that I booked and then cancelled maybe 15 minutes later, before it ticketed:
I made a mistake, United gets to keep my money and let me use it for future travel, with the knowledge that many of those funds wind up expiring or being used for suboptimal travel. United makes a mistake, blames others, voids tickets, lies about credit card charges, tells people to go to the airport and then denies them boarding.
I'm not saying I have all the answers to this, but if the DOT lets UA completely off the hook it's a sad day for purchasers of travel.
I made a mistake, United gets to keep my money and let me use it for future travel, with the knowledge that many of those funds wind up expiring or being used for suboptimal travel. United makes a mistake, blames others, voids tickets, lies about credit card charges, tells people to go to the airport and then denies them boarding.
I'm not saying I have all the answers to this, but if the DOT lets UA completely off the hook it's a sad day for purchasers of travel.
If the rule gets repealed, that could be bad though.
Feb 14, 2015, 7:39 pm
#3824
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4
Suffice it to say that I myself have serious misgivings about the soundness of your legal analysis. But no one here, except for you, is telling others to believe their argument because they are a legal authority on the matter. That, together with how certain you appear of your conclusions, may deceive folks into misjudging the legal merits of their own position.
And it makes other folks wonder what you would have to gain by so fervently guarding the pockets of a corporation on this public forum if you have no financial interest.
Feb 14, 2015, 7:52 pm
#3825
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
If only you were merely making legal arguments. Instead, you yourself put your professional credentials into question by using them as the principal support for your legal arguments.
Suffice it to say that I myself have serious misgivings about the soundness of your legal analysis. But no one here, except for you, is telling others to believe their argument because they are a legal authority on the matter. That, together with how certain you appear of your conclusions, may deceive folks into misjudging the legal merits of their own position.
And it makes other folks wonder what you would have to gain by so fervently guarding the pockets of a corporation on this public forum if you have no financial interest.
Suffice it to say that I myself have serious misgivings about the soundness of your legal analysis. But no one here, except for you, is telling others to believe their argument because they are a legal authority on the matter. That, together with how certain you appear of your conclusions, may deceive folks into misjudging the legal merits of their own position.
And it makes other folks wonder what you would have to gain by so fervently guarding the pockets of a corporation on this public forum if you have no financial interest.
The mindset you are expressing is extremely conspiratorial, like I am out to get you rather than being a person who has an opinion about some legal arguments and is posting it on a message board.
I suspect you and a few other people are likely in for a nasty shock of reality, as non-lawyers often experience when they discover that the too cute by half arguments and justifications they come up with aren't persuasive to the people who matter.
But I would urge you- conspiracy theories are almost always wrong. But worse than being wrong, they lead you away from the truth. As I said, if I were really wrong, it would be easy enough to establish that fact without making this personal and an organized conspiracy generated by an airline. I encourage you to consult reliable sources and get yourself some good information if you really want to know if your position has merit.