Feb 11, 15, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
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According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
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According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 12, 15, 4:14 am
#2401
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Programs: ITA Executive, Sixt Diamond, Hertz PC, Avis PC, IHG Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 5,085
7) EU 261/2004 covers only the ones who will depart in the next 14 days! even if, to obtaina compensation, you'll have to file a claim to UA, that will deny it for sure, then you'll have firstly to file a claim to the civil aviation authority (similar to the DOT) then in the last case, sue them to the court where you'll have good possibility to have this matter on your side. I'm speaking by a strictly legal point of view.
Feb 12, 15, 4:15 am
#2402
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Along the German/Dutch border
Programs: HH, SPG, IHG, Club Carlson, Hyatt, AA, DL, AmEx, UR
Posts: 138
There is also the upside of we will know what an airline can get away with in regards to third party currency conversions.
Anybody that booked any fare connecting in the UK will have been undercharged on the taxes (although the base fare would not have been reduced).
If they are able to pass the blame off on this (and it does not rely on the assumption people booking had bad faith), then they will likely be able to cancel any future tickets where the third party stuffs up any currency conversion regardless of what they advertise the price as.
Anybody that booked any fare connecting in the UK will have been undercharged on the taxes (although the base fare would not have been reduced).
If they are able to pass the blame off on this (and it does not rely on the assumption people booking had bad faith), then they will likely be able to cancel any future tickets where the third party stuffs up any currency conversion regardless of what they advertise the price as.
Feb 12, 15, 4:16 am
#2403
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Along the German/Dutch border
Programs: HH, SPG, IHG, Club Carlson, Hyatt, AA, DL, AmEx, UR
Posts: 138
I don't know who at all would get involved, if anyone. Likely no one. It's simply some fuel for thought if you wish to consider it.
Feb 12, 15, 4:17 am
#2404
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 16,270
Though I think giving the physical address information is not obligatory.
As for the PDF file, it seems odd you can't upload it.
Feb 12, 15, 4:19 am
#2405
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Along the German/Dutch border
Programs: HH, SPG, IHG, Club Carlson, Hyatt, AA, DL, AmEx, UR
Posts: 138
Long gone. But I reckon quite lot of people (especially those whore found out on the blogs) are new to this type of deals and can be reasonably furious why they can't blame their mistakes on a 3rd party developer.
I'd guess that the law applies regardless of your residency.
How would the invers argument work? UA going after a custmer in one country because someone in another country paid more? Good luck with that.
Even those booking w/o a ticket number yet were stated on UA.com as "Your purchase is confirmed."
I'd guess that the law applies regardless of your residency.
How would the invers argument work? UA going after a custmer in one country because someone in another country paid more? Good luck with that.
Even those booking w/o a ticket number yet were stated on UA.com as "Your purchase is confirmed."
Feb 12, 15, 4:19 am
#2407
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Londinium
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 929
I remember when United was the "class airline" and traded off that reputation. However, it ceased treating customers with any respect years ago, and has a staff who treat the customer as a combatant.
The sanctimony is useless to this conversation, and people who only come on here to repeatedly lecture the rest need to be barred from posting in this thread.
Feb 12, 15, 4:20 am
#2408
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 261
That assumes that everyflight flies with full first/business class which obviously does not happen.
Feb 12, 15, 4:20 am
#2409
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,264
Come on, that was clearly a joke. Altough I'm quite principal about thise one, mainly because of the attitude of UA, I LMAO'ed more than a few times and in the end we should all keep some humour. This is not a war zone after all...
Feb 12, 15, 4:21 am
#2410
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 88
No because that's not in my side of the contract..... The rules that govern these contracts simply don't give the airlines that 24hrs. It's one of the very limited things that is in favour of the consumer here (and it's not even a generic rule).
But it's also irrelevant, it's not a ground UA is basing it's cancellation on. It's mere coincedence that they acted this fast, they would have done the same thing after the 24hr mark.
Yeah, it can suck for an airline. But don't make these mistakes then, you know the price of them in advance. This is an industry that so many regulations, most of those not in favour of the consumer......
But it's also irrelevant, it's not a ground UA is basing it's cancellation on. It's mere coincedence that they acted this fast, they would have done the same thing after the 24hr mark.
Yeah, it can suck for an airline. But don't make these mistakes then, you know the price of them in advance. This is an industry that so many regulations, most of those not in favour of the consumer......
Feb 12, 15, 4:23 am
#2412
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 7th planet on your right
Programs: BA[G], SQ[G], TK[G], DL[PM], EY[G], AF[S], IC[Amb], HH[G]
Posts: 1,641
claiming TO EU
Guys,
for those travelling on itineraries not trasiting/heading to US, is there any draft for the claiming regarding Reg.261?
Cheers
for those travelling on itineraries not trasiting/heading to US, is there any draft for the claiming regarding Reg.261?
Cheers
Feb 12, 15, 4:23 am
#2413
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Along the German/Dutch border
Programs: HH, SPG, IHG, Club Carlson, Hyatt, AA, DL, AmEx, UR
Posts: 138
IIRC on my credit card apps the Patriot act is mentioned.
Something about verifying my US address for my account and a requirement to notify the bank of changes in my address. The rules are meant to deter moneylaundrying. I am not a lawyer but could UAL use the incorrect address as an excuse not to honor these tickets if they violate the Patriot Act?
Something about verifying my US address for my account and a requirement to notify the bank of changes in my address. The rules are meant to deter moneylaundrying. I am not a lawyer but could UAL use the incorrect address as an excuse not to honor these tickets if they violate the Patriot Act?
Feb 12, 15, 4:23 am
#2415
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Londinium
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 929
Hi, no reason for the disrespectful attitude. I did, in fact, book a ticket (two of them.) Had I not, why in the world would I have jumped into the thread? I most certainly am not the type to stir up trouble or troll around. But I am wondering where to draw the line in seeking recourse for a cancelled ticket via the DoT. I had the form all filled out and was sitting there looking at it while my legal voice and conscious said to me, "don't do this before you think through the potential repercussions, e.g. issues with DoT, TSA, United status, United points, etc." Trust me, I would very much like to take my two first class flights just as much as all the rest of you.
But, back to the issue, there was such a statement, not that I took a screen shot of it, admittedly, but I believe some people early on in the thread posted the language. It most certainly caught my eye.
As to the contract of carriage, yes, it too, would prohibit at least the actions by the bookers. I have, admittedly, not read it closely or more than with a brief, cursory glance as it's the middle of my work day, but, for example, Section 5.h provides that UA may cancel abusive and/or illogical bookings, even if ticketed. Pursuant to section 28.F. liability where there has been contributory negligence by the passenger is disclaimed. Section 4.A. states that tickets may be automatically cancelled if fraudulent information is provided (granted, that seems to pertain more to passport information) but fraud would make the agreement voidable anyway, regardless of the form. Moreover, the United.com T&C state that users shall not make any "false or fraudulent purchase or reservation."
Anyway, was only hoping for an intelligent, respectful conversation on the topic. I very much hope that you receive from Untied whatever makes you feel as though you were treated equitably at the end of the day. Cheers.
But, back to the issue, there was such a statement, not that I took a screen shot of it, admittedly, but I believe some people early on in the thread posted the language. It most certainly caught my eye.
As to the contract of carriage, yes, it too, would prohibit at least the actions by the bookers. I have, admittedly, not read it closely or more than with a brief, cursory glance as it's the middle of my work day, but, for example, Section 5.h provides that UA may cancel abusive and/or illogical bookings, even if ticketed. Pursuant to section 28.F. liability where there has been contributory negligence by the passenger is disclaimed. Section 4.A. states that tickets may be automatically cancelled if fraudulent information is provided (granted, that seems to pertain more to passport information) but fraud would make the agreement voidable anyway, regardless of the form. Moreover, the United.com T&C state that users shall not make any "false or fraudulent purchase or reservation."
Anyway, was only hoping for an intelligent, respectful conversation on the topic. I very much hope that you receive from Untied whatever makes you feel as though you were treated equitably at the end of the day. Cheers.
You're either lying or are tone deaf.
