Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Dec 2, 2013, 6:59 pm

#9661

AA_EXP09

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Oct 2011

Location: Anywhere I need to be.

Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond

Posts: 16,046

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerffej201

I received this package of joy and delight today:

the stack is at least 12 inches high. what a waste of paper.

(sorry for the instagram)

It is one sided-at least you have scrap papers for revision (finals are coming up...)
The link appears to come from your blog, not Instagram.
At least we know that LX probably spent >$100 on POSTAGE alone (especially if they had to send some of the mail to SIN and the USA-though the burden could be lessened by only billing it as Canada domestic and using LX aircraft to send the mail to SIN, it is still quite significant.)

Last edited by AA_EXP09; Dec 2, 2013 at 7:31 pm

Dec 2, 2013, 7:19 pm

#9662

BrewerSEA

Join Date: Nov 2010

Location: Seattle

Programs: AS MVPG 75K

Posts: 2,574

Quote:

Originally Posted by colpuck

That's a pleasant stack of paper. Would you be willing to scan the TOC and post it?

Application for Judicial Review: A-402-13.

Motion for Leave for Appeal TOC: 13-A-35 TOC

Motion for Leave to Appeal: 13-A-35 pages 8-18

Last edited by BrewerSEA; Dec 2, 2013 at 7:44 pm

Dec 2, 2013, 8:32 pm

#9663

yerffej201

Join Date: Nov 2011

Posts: 6,385

Quote:

Originally Posted by AA_EXP09

Well I took a screenshot of my instagram and uploaded it to my blog

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrewerSEA

Application for Judicial Review: A-402-13.

Motion for Leave for Appeal TOC: 13-A-35 TOC

Motion for Leave to Appeal: 13-A-35 pages 8-18

Thanks, you do all the scanning I'm to lazy to do.

Dec 2, 2013, 10:43 pm

#9664

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC

Posts: 5,561

So basically they are using all the same old arguments. "It'll hurt us, it isn't fair", etc. However, they are now flat out saying that CTA was completely incorrect and overstepped their jurisdiction!

I still don't understand why they are bringing up cases from another country. They certainly wouldn't want it the other way (say if someone in another country won they wouldn't want that as evidence in a case in Canada). Laws are different in different countries, they must understand that. I do find it interesting that they call it "forum shopping". I call it finding the agency that claims jurisdiction since DoT (and the US Courts apparently) won't step up to the plate

Dec 3, 2013, 3:42 am

#9665

onlysuites

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Sep 2003

Programs: BA Silver, EY Gold, HH Diamond, IHG Plat

Posts: 12,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

probably less damaging to the environment than flying around the world for no purpose other than a flight in an F cabin

it seems LX gets in trouble no matter what they do? people have to be included in the legal process. If they didn't send the relevant documents they would be accused of not providing information (to the detriment of pax, hoping it will all go away etc etc).

For once I agree with you ^ (will try and not make this a habit

)

Dec 3, 2013, 5:41 am

#9666

seanthepilot

formerly known as 2lovelife

Join Date: Dec 2000

Location: ORF : UA_Premier_Gold4Life, Bonvoy_titanium, Accor_Plat

Posts: 6,952

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrewerSEA

The carbon footprint of an F passenger is far higher than that of a ream of paper.

These planes fly with many empty seats in the F cabin. Hardly a difference to have someone sitting in that seat. The plane was flying there anyway.

Dec 3, 2013, 5:50 am

#9667

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Mar 2001

Location: AU

Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)

Posts: 14,405

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanthepilot

These planes fly with many empty seats in the F cabin. Hardly a difference to have someone sitting in that seat. The plane was flying there anyway.

just plugging in figures into calculators on google... First class seat RGN-YUL produces 9.1 metric tonnes of CO2, compared to a paper which produces 1.6kg per ream.

for comparison an economy seat produces 2.28 metric tonnes RGN-YUL. So just the weight of the human for transport would far outweigh 1.6kg for the ream of paper.

Not including the ticket to get to RGN in the first place

Dec 3, 2013, 6:08 am

#9668

saranyc

Join Date: Sep 2012

Location: Born and raised in South Carolina, now in New York City.

Posts: 534

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

I think that assumes 100% capacity though, right? Surely if you have an empty seat in F and then fill it with a person it doesn't add an additional 9.1 metric tons of CO2, right? I think they are adding up all the CO2 for the entire plane and then rationing it out based on all of the different seat types and luggage allowances. Many times F seats go unused.

Dec 3, 2013, 6:31 am

#9669

IAN-UK

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Aug 2000

Location: London

Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK

Posts: 17,008

Quote:

Originally Posted by saranyc

So the "overhead", fixed costs involved in carrying you should be allocated to your fellow passenger, or carried by the airline? And then again, your fellow passengers might employ the very same analysis....

The marginal costs of many activities and services are extraordinarily low - but you have a vanishingly small chance of enjoying those activities and accessing the service at the marginal/incremental cost of providing them.

You might find it hard to convince a train operator, never mind an airline, that you should be carried at the marginal cost of transporting you

Costing environmental pollution on a marginal basis would mean we value our individual contribution at close to peanuts, leaving a whole pile of crap unaccounted for.

Dec 3, 2013, 8:22 am

#9670

5DMarkIIguy

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 794

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanthepilot

These planes fly with many empty seats in the F cabin. Hardly a difference to have someone sitting in that seat. The plane was flying there anyway.

Exactly my point.
With or without F passengers, these planes still fly out.

Dec 3, 2013, 8:29 am

#9671

5DMarkIIguy

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 794

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAN-UK

You might find it hard to convince a train operator, never mind an airline, that you should be carried at the marginal cost of transporting you

It is hard to convince LX to transport you as is, don't need to bring a train into this to make a point.

Dec 3, 2013, 8:33 am

#9672

Pseudo Nim

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: In the air

Programs: Occasional RTW club

Posts: 6,924

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5DMarkIIguy

It is hard to convince LX to transport you as is, don't need to bring a train into this to make a point.

this made me enjoy the meeting I am in far more. ^

Dec 3, 2013, 8:34 am

#9673

mkjr

Join Date: Oct 2007

Location: Left

Programs: FT

Posts: 7,285

yes, there is a lot of mistake this mistake that....and poor us...you'll bankrupt us if you allow this to go through...hard to feel sympathetic to "the man".

Dec 3, 2013, 11:05 am

#9674

OnAMileHigh

Join Date: Dec 2002

Location: Chicago

Programs: AA Exp Plat, UA 1K MM, DL Plat Hyatt Globalist, MGM Noir

Posts: 882

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonvr

In TOC they reference an 11/27 sworn affidavit from Mina Cicale. Then in document 13-A-35 they reference an 11/27 sworn affidavit from Marie D'Amico will be used as evidence. Are there one or two affidavits? If so, who are these people and what is their testimony? Are the affidavits included in the document dump, and if so would one of the Seven Mavericks please post them if they are relevant.

I find it interesting that the affidavits were sworn on 11/27, after the CTA's ruling. Is LX allowed to enter new evidence as part of their appeal?

Dec 3, 2013, 1:56 pm

#9675

everywhere

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 5,984

SWISS' counsel is doing a good job at making arguments in support of the CTA's decision. For example:

Quote:

10. The airline industry is generally characterized by low profit margins and high fixed costs, primarily relating to costs of personnel, aircraft fuel, debt servicing and equipment lease rentals or financing costs. The expenses of an aircraft flight do not significantly vary with the number of passengers carried and, as a result, a change in pricing may have a disproportionate effect on an airline's operating and financial results. Consequently, a minor shortfall in expected revenue levels could financially harm the business of the Applicant, Swiss International Air Lines Ltd., doing business as SWISS.