Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Feb 11, 2014, 10:25 pm

#9826

cruisr

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Quote:

Originally Posted by danger

If I remember correctly one of LX's very early arguments against the CTA taking action was because one or two authorities in the US had dismissed action. In their ruling the CTA, quite rightly in my opinion, retorted 'So what? That's the US and this is Canada', so I don't think the CTA will give a similar argument by LX any weight.

It's déjà vu all over again.

Feb 11, 2014, 10:33 pm

#9827

stephem

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Quote:

Originally Posted by thexfactor

Legal/statutory interpretation ≠ essay writing and general rules of reading comprehension.

As Dr. HFH rightly points out, barring unusual circumstances, or patent ambiguity, words mean what they say, and say what they mean, without the need to (or indeed the allowance of) resorting to legislative history or other possible red herrings.

Yes, context is important, but again, it doesn't take precedence over the simple plain meaning.

Actually, what you say is not really how it works with interpretation of federal regulations. I have colleagues that write dozen page submissions to a federal agency about the meaning of 2 or 3 words and then write hundreds of pages in court cases if they don't like the answer they get...

Feb 11, 2014, 11:11 pm

#9828

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

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Quote:

Originally Posted by danger

in the letter dated 17 July (wiki top of page) Swiss uses findings of courts in the USA as evidence to support their case (ie, while not binding, the courts agreed with the Swiss arguments regarding mistake and contract law).

they did not make the argument that the plaintiff had their actions dismissed therefore were not entitled to proceed via the CTA.

in the CTA's decision dated October 30 it notes Mr Brewer's reference to the DOT regulations prohibiting post purchase price increases, but says the CTA lacks jurisdiction to interpret or rule on US law.

the October decision doesn't appear to address issues other than the show cause that were raised by Swiss in their letters of 17/18 July.

however... there are a lot of letters and decisions floating around. it may be there is another decision by the CTA dealing with the US cases.

Feb 11, 2014, 11:13 pm

#9829

Dr. HFH

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stephem

I'm not challenging you to a legal smackdown, not saying this a sure winner-- But I am saying there is a novel interpretation issue here and it's not DOA.

Exactly. As I believe that I said up near the beginning of when I started commenting, I think that this is going to be an interesting case/issue, and far from clear cut either way. And as you said, it's a novel issue. Wouldn't surprise me if turned out to be one of first impression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephem

If you don't have tickets, please go troll somewhere else.

What an unnecessarily rude comment. Where you and I have disagreed, I have done so in a civil and respectful manner. I'm not sure where this harshness is coming from, but it's undeserved and inconsistent with the reasonable discussions which are the norm on FT and which I thought we were having here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephem

... then write hundreds of pages in court cases if they don't like the answer they get ...

Thus keeping us lawyers in business.

Feb 12, 2014, 6:37 am

#9830

lewende

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

That's because none of the original 7 went to court against LX.

Last edited by lewende; Feb 12, 2014 at 8:15 am Reason: Typo

Feb 12, 2014, 7:59 am

#9831

colpuck

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Can some either post or PM me a link to the most recent letter for the merged cases. I have getting e-mails on an inconsistent basis and I want to make sure I know where I am.

TYIA

Last edited by colpuck; Feb 12, 2014 at 8:44 am

Feb 12, 2014, 5:42 pm

#9832

Deltahater

Join Date: Aug 2004

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I think the business day is over in Canada, what is the ruling?

Feb 12, 2014, 8:59 pm

#9833

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

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Quote:

Originally Posted by colpuck

Can some either post or PM me a link to the most recent letter for the merged cases. I have getting e-mails on an inconsistent basis and I want to make sure I know where I am.

TYIA

I posted links in the wiki to the latest ones I have (last links in the wiki). However, I posted them without all the personal information (full names, emails, addresses, etc) of everyone. If you PM me your name, I can tell you if you were in the letters I received.

Feb 12, 2014, 10:09 pm

#9834

Dr. HFH

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CzeSEN

It does. No power --> no lounge --> reference force majeure. Simply outside of airline's control and choice.

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CzeSEN

Here, taking away chauffeur drive and lounge access --> airline's conscious decision. Imagine buying a shirt online. The vendor advertises free alternations and shipping back-and-forth in case the shirt doesn't fit you. And then, after the purchase... the company refuses to alter your shirt and asks for a shipping and handling fee. Because of vendor's one-sided decision, you're not receiving the product and service that was offered to you, both subject to a contract. Hence, in this case, you can, indeed, talk about breach of contract.

The online shirt purchase as you provided it, however, is an inapposite example because it is incomplete. Don't forget EY's error. So to make the example analogous, the shirt vendor's advertisement was supposed to say, "Alterations available at additional cost" but the web design company inserted the wrong text. Now, the shirt vendor has the option to cancel the contract pursuant to the doctrine of unilateral mistake. If you're relying on basic contract law. That won't come into play in this transaction, however, because it is controlled by DOT regulations, which supersede the common law of contract and appear to offer much more protection than contract law.

Feb 13, 2014, 2:19 am

#9835

skywalkerLAX

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To be honest I find the fact that the CTA exposes the private information of all relevant complainants to such an extend quiet disturbing. We're not only talking names here but addresses and email. Is that even legal?

Saying this after being the recipient of a multitude of unsolicited mailings (including one from a reporter).

Feb 13, 2014, 2:29 am

#9836

Dr. HFH

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Quote:

Originally Posted by skywalkerLAX

Can't say for Canada, but typically it is in the U.S. and has been that way for a very long time. The exceptions tend to be in litigation involving minors or if there is a specific reason not to make the information public in a specific case. The baseline theory is that by making the information public, the judicial process doesn't operate in secret and it keeps things honest.

Feb 13, 2014, 4:13 am

#9837

everywhere

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 5,984

Quote:

Originally Posted by skywalkerLAX

You specifically agree to that when you file a formal complaint with the CTA.

Feb 13, 2014, 7:54 am

#9838

Deltahater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by skywalkerLAX

You really should know better. Every legal filing is public record unless you get it sealed. It is amazing what you can find out about your neighbors if you search tax records, marriage records etc.

If you participate in any filing (in court or with an agency like the DOT, CTA), you bet that your personal information is public record.

When you are bored one day, just go to the courthouse and look up some divorce decrees. Often they include SSN, children's birthdays etc, especially the older ones.

Feb 13, 2014, 7:57 am

#9839

Deltahater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by challett

And really, not to be terse here, but who books a mistake fare and thinks they're going to be able to change it and keep the original fare. Really?

I do... because the fare rules specifically allow me to

Feb 13, 2014, 1:29 pm

#9840

redtailshark

Suspended

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Location: Tucson, AZ, USA. UA 1K, reluctant but * best in class * DL FO/MM. Former BA jumpseat rider and scourge of Dilbertian management and apologists. As LX might - and do - say: "....an experienced frequent flyer of international airlines"

Posts: 3,386

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltahater

Them's the rules of the game.

It cuts both ways.

LX's agents, their filings and the correspondence with CTA is all available under the Canadian AIA. That means, we're going to obtain the text of the lobbying activities undertaken on behalf of LX when this is done, as well as communication between public officials and the LX lobbyists and CTA officials. They know this. So do we. And...so we should. Citizens in democracies absolutely should have rights of accountability regarding public affairs/tax dollars, as these proceedings are. However, the gov't requires reciprocidad in this. I think it's fair.

If you don't like the idea, then don't file with public agencies. But as Deltahater says, there are tons of facts available to any and all who care to search for them. Just as an FYI, my County Assessor's office posts mortgage downpayment information along with parcel data on their public geospatial data site.... my students have a great time mapping this during GIS classes....shows how little the nouveau riche actually put down

I would much rather live under these conditions than, say, Putin's Russia. You might keep your information confidential from your neighbors (although never from the state "security" apparatus), but then, you have no recourse or method of ensuring public accountability.