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CLE - Impact of other airlines (gates, routes, equipment, & etc) after UA De-Hubbing

CLE - Impact of other airlines (gates, routes, equipment, & etc) after UA De-Hubbing

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Old Jul 17, 18, 10:14 am
  #1771  
 
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Originally Posted by RNE View Post
And SAN, SEA, BWI, LAS and PHX for crying out loud!
As nice as it would be few of these make a ton of economic sense. I mean heck, even when CLE was a CO hub SAN was at best infrequent seasonal [I know when it was running, it was never at a time that made sense for my and it makes far more sense to connect the Western traffic through ORD, DEN, SFO, or LAX then a low-yield one-off flight.

PHX being an AA hub with a significant WN presence would probably be money losing.
BWI with the existing service to IAD and DCA would be iffy (and probably bloodshed with WN)
LAS is bloody market with lots of low cost competition -- save for tradeshows I don't see UA making a ton of money on this route (otherwise they wouldn't have cut it a few years ago -- it survived for a decent amount of time post-dehubbing)

Honestly, I'd prefer UA beef up the hub frequencies so I can get to all of the oddball places I need to get to (or even these places) efficiently rather than waste resources on one-off flights to "nice" destinations that have plenty of competition.
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Old Jul 17, 18, 10:23 am
  #1772  
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio View Post
I doubt UA would be successful in those markets.
With right-sized equipment they can.
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Old Jul 17, 18, 11:38 am
  #1773  
 
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Originally Posted by RNE View Post
With right-sized equipment they can.
There isn't any right-sized equipment that can routinely fly from CLE to the West Coast.
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Old Jul 17, 18, 1:34 pm
  #1774  
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio View Post
There isn't any right-sized equipment that can routinely fly from CLE to the West Coast.
Oh, no! You've defeated me with that comeback. I'll slink away now.

Seriously, for umpteen years, CO used right-sized equipment on the routes I suggested. Yes, that was then and this is now. But, so what? Of late, aircraft capacities are more varied than ever and efficiency much improved. Right-sizing is possible.
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Old Jul 17, 18, 1:56 pm
  #1775  
 
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Originally Posted by RNE View Post
Oh, no! You've defeated me with that comeback. I'll slink away now.

Seriously, for umpteen years, CO used right-sized equipment on the routes I suggested. Yes, that was then and this is now. But, so what? Of late, aircraft capacities are more varied than ever and efficiency much improved. Right-sizing is possible.
That was with (presumably) connecting traffic, and assumes all of the other factors are irrelevant (aircraft utilization, crew positioning, strategic importance...) .

To me "right size" for those routes is probably at best an E175 -- so you have to get an aircraft into CLE from a hub/crew base, then do something with that aircraft once it gets to another outstation. Probably fine if no IROPS but if things go sideways it would be a mess to recover.
Then you have the fact that UA can't grow the 76-seat aircraft fleet any larger than it currently is (due to pilot scope clauses) so the question is... is using an E175 on a market like CLE-LAS where UA is going to realize the highest yield for that aircraft? Presumably, if it were that flight would exist.
And lastly there's the whole "preference" thing. E.g. yes, a E145 can do CLE-XYZ but would passengers willingly do it? "Chicago" is about the extent of my E145 tolerance from Cleveland. For a E170/CR7 up front I have a slightly greater tolerance, but even then it doesn't get me to Denver. I'll willingly ride a 175 further (i.e. I'd at least entertain the thought of doing a 175 to DEN) but that still doesn't get me to PHX, SAN or SEA. But there's also not a 170/175/CR7 crew base in CLE as there is for mainline aircraft.

You put the "express" moniker in front of a flight, at almost certainly a higher fare than NK or F9 with their "big jets" and I don't think you're going to see the revenue to justify it -- you're going to get a bunch (likely not even fill the plane up) of cheap leisure travelers at a wonky time while your high revenue pax will go with flights that work for their schedule. And, again, as a full-fare pax when CO offered CLE-SAN or CLE-PHX, the schedule never worked for my needs, so I still wound up going through (at the time) IAH.
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Old Jul 17, 18, 3:36 pm
  #1776  
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Originally Posted by lincolnjkc View Post
...when CO offered CLE-SAN or CLE-PHX, the schedule never worked for my needs, so I still wound up going through (at the time) IAH.
Always worked for me. And I reveled in those "transcon" nonstops.

RNE, nostalgic.
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Old Jul 18, 18, 2:15 pm
  #1777  
 
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Noticed the WOW flights have switched to seasonal, when did that happen? a few months ago the schedule was past xmas from cle, now it looks like it ends 10/24. I sort of like the flight times and you really can't beat a naked fare of $170 to europe (if you like to travel light). Only other improvement would be booking via the chase portal for 11,300 points each way.
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Old Jul 21, 18, 8:33 am
  #1778  
 
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CLE reported passenger figures through June 2018, and totals are up 7.68% to 4,671,689 YTD. Projections are for 9.6 million pax by year end. Would love to see the international breakout to see the impact of a full month of WOW and Icelandair.

CLE Continues Passenger Growth | Cleveland Hopkins Airport
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Old Jul 21, 18, 8:37 am
  #1779  
 
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Originally Posted by moops380 View Post
Noticed the WOW flights have switched to seasonal, when did that happen? a few months ago the schedule was past xmas from cle, now it looks like it ends 10/24. I sort of like the flight times and you really can't beat a naked fare of $170 to europe (if you like to travel light). Only other improvement would be booking via the chase portal for 11,300 points each way.
I think WOW was always supposed to be seasonal, while Icelandair is operating year-round, albeit down to 4 days/week in winter. I'm heading to KEF on FI the day after Christmas for a 4-day Northern Lights and Golden Circle getaway. Fares to the continent seem a bit higher in winter, perhaps due to the lack of WW's competition?
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Old Jul 21, 18, 9:33 am
  #1780  
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How many NEO'ers even know/remember that nonstop TATL flights are available from CLE? Of late, I'm not seeing much advertising from either of the TATL carriers.
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Old Jul 21, 18, 10:09 am
  #1781  
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Is FI a LCC? What's wrong with this picture?

Expedia: RT (1 stop max) CLE-AMS-CLE. Sep 5-12. 1 pax.

$681 American
$744 Delta
$744 United
$746 Air Canada
$948 Icelandair
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Old Jul 21, 18, 10:30 am
  #1782  
 
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Originally Posted by RNE View Post
Is FI a LCC? What's wrong with this picture?
LCC refers to operating costs, not fares (that's a LFC) -- just like Southwest is a LCC but not always (or even often) the lowest fare.

But I can also see people with no airline allegiances willing to pay a couple hundred bucks premium to avoid a stop.
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Old Jul 21, 18, 6:14 pm
  #1783  
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Originally Posted by lincolnjkc View Post
But I can also see people with no airline allegiances willing to pay a couple hundred bucks premium to avoid a stop.
Not sure what you're getting at. All the examples I cited were 1-stops (CLE-XXX-AMS). Nothing to do with avoiding stops.

What I'm questioning is, Why does FI think NEO'ers will pay a premium to connect at KEF on their way to AMS, rather than saving $267 by connecting at PHL on AA? And, piggybacking on that quandary, How long will FI be around charging so much more for nothing extra?
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Old Jul 21, 18, 7:46 pm
  #1784  
 
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Originally Posted by RNE View Post
Not sure what you're getting at. All the examples I cited were 1-stops (CLE-XXX-AMS). Nothing to do with avoiding stops.

What I'm questioning is, Why does FI think NEO'ers will pay a premium to connect at KEF on their way to AMS, rather than saving $267 by connecting at PHL on AA? And, piggybacking on that quandary, How long will FI be around charging so much more for nothing extra?
Oh, duh. Sorry think my brain is still an airport or two behind and for some reason I was thinking we were talking CLE-KEF -- even though you clearly weren't. Given that set of facts, the only *possible* reasons for someone with no allegiances would go for FI that would seem likely would be if there was better timing, or if they "heard that International airlines are better than US carriers" and FI satisfying the mental checkbox for "international carrier" -- but realistically -- yeah, don't see a draw for the premium. Heck, even for the "twice a year" traveler paying any attention at all to loyalty programs, IMO, it would be a stretch for any price premium (Oh, I can join FI's FFP and get a what amounts to a rebate I earn/burn through a relatively limited Euro-centric route network, or I can do UA (Star), AA (OneWorld), or DL (SkyTeam) and earn/burn on both my domestic travel and on a network that is for all intents and purposes global through the US members and global partners)

But neither airlines nor travelers are completely rational players in this game...
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Old Jul 23, 18, 9:26 am
  #1785  
 
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Originally Posted by RNE View Post
How many NEO'ers even know/remember that nonstop TATL flights are available from CLE? Of late, I'm not seeing much advertising from either of the TATL carriers.
What's the easiest way to check the load factors? 2 trips on wow so far and I didn't see any empty seats (they seem to be selling semi-last minute tickets for $170 each way)
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