Hiring for Milwaukee-based flight attendents
Mar 2, 2010, 3:52 pm
#31
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
Wrong
We would not accept a ~ 60% pay cut. We were going to accept some kind of concessions. The Frontier pilots accepted a 15% pay cut. They walked away from this saga smelling like roses compared to what happened to us.
Seabury demanded salaries that matched Republic salaries (almost to the cent). We were told take it or leave it. Water under the bridge now.
We would not accept a ~ 60% pay cut. We were going to accept some kind of concessions. The Frontier pilots accepted a 15% pay cut. They walked away from this saga smelling like roses compared to what happened to us.
Seabury demanded salaries that matched Republic salaries (almost to the cent). We were told take it or leave it. Water under the bridge now.
Wrong.
The Midwest pilots were told "take it or leave it"... you flying the E170, E190, B717 for the Republic E170 salaries (almost to the cent). Plus your retirement and work rules are gone.
The Republic pilots contract pays about 40% more to fly the E190 verses the E170 and Rev BB wanted to see if he could get cheaper pilots.
TPG and Rev BB were playing the Republic pilots against the Midwest pilots.
Last edited by n735; Mar 2, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Mar 2, 2010, 4:10 pm
#32
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 25
"Republic pilots contract pays about 40% more to fly the E190 verses the E170."
Airline Pilot Central claims Republic pays E190 & E175 captains 10% more than E170 captains, not 40% more.
Midwest captains made 28-42% more than Republic E190 captains. Most Midwest FOs made more than double what Republic FOs make. Unless APC is not accurate.
Whatever "take it or leave it" deal Republic offered, wouldn't it only apply until SLI issues were resolved?
Airline Pilot Central claims Republic pays E190 & E175 captains 10% more than E170 captains, not 40% more.
Midwest captains made 28-42% more than Republic E190 captains. Most Midwest FOs made more than double what Republic FOs make. Unless APC is not accurate.
Whatever "take it or leave it" deal Republic offered, wouldn't it only apply until SLI issues were resolved?
Mar 2, 2010, 4:54 pm
#33
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 12
Wrong.
The Midwest pilots were told "take it or leave it"... you flying the E170, E190, B717 for the Republic E170 salaries (almost to the cent). Plus your retirement and work rules are gone.
The Republic pilots contract pays about 40% more to fly the E190 verses the E170 and Rev BB wanted to see if he could get cheaper pilots.
TPG and Rev BB were playing the Republic pilots against the Midwest pilots.
The Midwest pilots were told "take it or leave it"... you flying the E170, E190, B717 for the Republic E170 salaries (almost to the cent). Plus your retirement and work rules are gone.
The Republic pilots contract pays about 40% more to fly the E190 verses the E170 and Rev BB wanted to see if he could get cheaper pilots.
TPG and Rev BB were playing the Republic pilots against the Midwest pilots.
We'll never find out the real story.
My point was Midwest ALPA was willing to negotiate.
Mar 2, 2010, 6:24 pm
#34
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
After looking at APC, I admit I'm incorrect about the 40% pay different between E170 and E190 at Republic.
The number I remember was that the Midwest pilots were offered a top pay of $87 per hour for Captains. The pay matched the Republic E170 scale but only to 12 years seniority. They didn't include the Republics 13-20 year pay scales. That was the 40% (really 37%) different between the Midwest "take it or leave it" and Republic $119 per hour top pay.
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a.../republic.html
Remember this is flight hours only... you work 2-3 hrs for each flight hour of pay.
The number I remember was that the Midwest pilots were offered a top pay of $87 per hour for Captains. The pay matched the Republic E170 scale but only to 12 years seniority. They didn't include the Republics 13-20 year pay scales. That was the 40% (really 37%) different between the Midwest "take it or leave it" and Republic $119 per hour top pay.
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a.../republic.html
Remember this is flight hours only... you work 2-3 hrs for each flight hour of pay.
Mar 3, 2010, 6:51 pm
#35
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5
The 190's weren't on property at the time of negotiations.
They were coming, but wouldn't you get paid 190 wages if flying that type? Wouldn't it have been better to take the job and get the payscales changed at the next contract? Aren't the CHQ/S5/RW crews in contract negotiations now? They are fighting for more money, especially the F/O's.
All I know is, I don't work at Midwest anymore either.
They were coming, but wouldn't you get paid 190 wages if flying that type? Wouldn't it have been better to take the job and get the payscales changed at the next contract? Aren't the CHQ/S5/RW crews in contract negotiations now? They are fighting for more money, especially the F/O's.
All I know is, I don't work at Midwest anymore either.
Mar 3, 2010, 10:06 pm
#36
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
The 190's weren't on property at the time of negotiations.
They were coming, but wouldn't you get paid 190 wages if flying that type? Wouldn't it have been better to take the job and get the payscales changed at the next contract? Aren't the CHQ/S5/RW crews in contract negotiations now? They are fighting for more money, especially the F/O's.
All I know is, I don't work at Midwest anymore either.
They were coming, but wouldn't you get paid 190 wages if flying that type? Wouldn't it have been better to take the job and get the payscales changed at the next contract? Aren't the CHQ/S5/RW crews in contract negotiations now? They are fighting for more money, especially the F/O's.
All I know is, I don't work at Midwest anymore either.
If the Midwest pilot had negotiated the $87 pay scale, the Republic pilots would not be flying Midwest painted aircraft. TPG and BB wanted to lower pilot salaries before the merger/purchase of Republic Airways.
If we had agreed to the lowest E190/B717 pay scale in the United States, Republic would be furloughing Republic pilots and moving more flying to the Midwest pilot contract. Then the Republic pilots would be attacked to lower their wages.
TH valued experienced pilot after Midwests one fatal accident. BB will be changing his point of view about the value of experienced pilots.
Mar 4, 2010, 7:32 am
#37
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 25
I don't think that would have helped Bedford in the long run.
If that had happened then Bedford would be forced to combine the Midwest and Republic pilot lists, which presumably would have occurred sometime this year (theoretically by May).
So he would be stuck with more senior pilots (on average) by furloughing Republic pilots and keeping Midwest pilots.
When the lists got combined presumably the Midwest pilots would be placed on the the Republic contract (does the arbitrator decide which contract is in effect?).
Then Bedford's wage bill would be signficantly higher than using Republic pilots for all Midwest flying from the start.
It would be a short term gain but a medium and long term loss.
This whole SLI/union/arbitration thing is a bit unclear to me so bare with me if I don't have this right.
If that had happened then Bedford would be forced to combine the Midwest and Republic pilot lists, which presumably would have occurred sometime this year (theoretically by May).
So he would be stuck with more senior pilots (on average) by furloughing Republic pilots and keeping Midwest pilots.
When the lists got combined presumably the Midwest pilots would be placed on the the Republic contract (does the arbitrator decide which contract is in effect?).
Then Bedford's wage bill would be signficantly higher than using Republic pilots for all Midwest flying from the start.
It would be a short term gain but a medium and long term loss.
This whole SLI/union/arbitration thing is a bit unclear to me so bare with me if I don't have this right.
Mar 4, 2010, 8:36 am
#38
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TPA-MKE-PHX
Programs: Ex DL-DM. MM. TWA-Aviator Plat. HHonors-DVIP, MR-Gold. Nat-Emerald. Avis Chairmn.
Posts: 1,925
Mar 4, 2010, 9:21 am
#39
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 25
Both crew had been hired a year and a half earlier, and were upgraded to captain a year later. The pilot was blamed for stalling the plane after losing an engine on take-off. The pilot was 31 and the FO was a 37-year-old former F-4 military pilot. The pilots alternated captain duties.
The short answer is yes.
The short answer is yes.
Mar 4, 2010, 11:12 am
#40
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: UA Premier
Posts: 193
Yes. They failed to maintain aircraft control and did not properly analyze the situation or take the proper action. Midwest Express was an equivalent then of what regional airlines are today.
By your logic, however, everyone is equally proficient at everything as long as they have the same basic training... experience means nothing. As an instructor pilot (USAF fighter), I can tell you experience means everything. Lower-time pilots make more mistakes, have lower situational awareness and generally "need to be watched" more than higher time pilots, despite having the same instrument qualifications. I won't even discuss how experience enahnces tactical flying ability.
By your logic, however, everyone is equally proficient at everything as long as they have the same basic training... experience means nothing. As an instructor pilot (USAF fighter), I can tell you experience means everything. Lower-time pilots make more mistakes, have lower situational awareness and generally "need to be watched" more than higher time pilots, despite having the same instrument qualifications. I won't even discuss how experience enahnces tactical flying ability.
Mar 4, 2010, 12:19 pm
#41
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TPA-MKE-PHX
Programs: Ex DL-DM. MM. TWA-Aviator Plat. HHonors-DVIP, MR-Gold. Nat-Emerald. Avis Chairmn.
Posts: 1,925
Yes. They failed to maintain aircraft control and did not properly analyze the situation or take the proper action. Midwest Express was an equivalent then of what regional airlines are today.
By your logic, however, everyone is equally proficient at everything as long as they have the same basic training... experience means nothing. As an instructor pilot (USAF fighter), I can tell you experience means everything. Lower-time pilots make more mistakes, have lower situational awareness and generally "need to be watched" more than higher time pilots, despite having the same instrument qualifications. I won't even discuss how experience enahnces tactical flying ability.
By your logic, however, everyone is equally proficient at everything as long as they have the same basic training... experience means nothing. As an instructor pilot (USAF fighter), I can tell you experience means everything. Lower-time pilots make more mistakes, have lower situational awareness and generally "need to be watched" more than higher time pilots, despite having the same instrument qualifications. I won't even discuss how experience enahnces tactical flying ability.
Again, someone has to start somewhere. Where should a newly minted, commercial airline pilot fly his first flight?
Mar 4, 2010, 3:18 pm
#43
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
Midwest thought the accident was caused by uncontained turbine blade failure cutting the rudder cables. The pilots would have no control at that point.
Mar 4, 2010, 4:17 pm
#44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TPA-MKE-PHX
Programs: Ex DL-DM. MM. TWA-Aviator Plat. HHonors-DVIP, MR-Gold. Nat-Emerald. Avis Chairmn.
Posts: 1,925
Nope. I have a BA. I presently own four companies. One inherited. One started and two bought. they range from service to manufacturing with locations in Florida, Arizona and Wisconsin. I have a union at one. I have over 200 employees.
Mar 4, 2010, 4:33 pm
#45
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: MKE
Posts: 2,161