Is it now Midworst?
Dec 2, 2009, 6:05 pm
#16
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 344
Before Midwest was operating in a city with high fares, not because of service, but because of the lack of low cost or major competition in the market. Therefore they were able to pay their pilots fair wages, but then fuel-prices, low cost competition, and the economy came to Milwaukee and stomped it out.
Also, from what I've heard, but don't quote me, airtran pilots and flight attendants are getting paid far less than what the senior Midwest crews were getting paid.
-- Beware of some ranting below, sorry. --
Please don't try to push a lot of this blame on TH. For the short time I knew him he was a great guy. I'm sure he tried his best to keep the pilots and flight attendants working. But the unions weren't making it easy for him, citing their famous words "Full Pay, till the last day!". He needed them to take further pay cuts to help keep costs down and allow him to keep a small airline competitive against the, larger, low cost carrier airtran. But since his management team wasn't allowed to do this he had to make job and route cuts.
If it wasn't for TH's efforts and that of Republic, Midwest would have gone to the way side along with the other 700 employees that are not crew. But now we have the great news that the 700 jobs that are in Milwaukee will stay and that Republic will add about 800 more jobs over the coming years! How is this not a good thing for Milwaukee and Midwest? We're struggling in a bad economy where people need jobs and Midwest is now offering them.
Of course Midwest pilots and flight attendants will always have the chance to come back and work for Republic, but, yes, they probably won't do it, because Republic crew pay isn't as great as they were used too.
I also feel that the unions should be held a little bit more responsible for greater job losses across all of Midwest's operations than what management was. Their unwillingness to cooperate caused more hardship for everyone including themselves, because of their stance, "Full Pay, till the last day." Now this sounds to me that they were looking to put the company out of business, along with the other airline's workers, so they could get their usual, high salary pay check. How selfish is that?
Anyways I enjoy reading all your comments. It's always great to read other people opinions on matters. These comments will always help to provide better services to people that fly Midwest.
Dec 2, 2009, 8:08 pm
#17
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
Management people always want to blame labor.
Midwest pilots only asked for industry average wages and benefits. They were willing to fly 19 seat turbo-props if it would help Midwest.
The Facts....
Midwests 10 year Captains pay $128 per flight hour (free labor if the airplane is parked)
AirTrans 10 year Captain pay $144 per flight hour
Southwest 10 year Captain pay $201 per flight hour
Labor costs were not the problem, but a opportunity for Republic with low time, less experienced pilot that have flown an average of say 3 years in the airline industry.
The problem at Midwest was it needed to change the aircraft fleet because TH bought the wrong equipment (looking in hide sight) 8 years ago.
Midwest pilots only asked for industry average wages and benefits. They were willing to fly 19 seat turbo-props if it would help Midwest.
The Facts....
Midwests 10 year Captains pay $128 per flight hour (free labor if the airplane is parked)
AirTrans 10 year Captain pay $144 per flight hour
Southwest 10 year Captain pay $201 per flight hour
Labor costs were not the problem, but a opportunity for Republic with low time, less experienced pilot that have flown an average of say 3 years in the airline industry.
The problem at Midwest was it needed to change the aircraft fleet because TH bought the wrong equipment (looking in hide sight) 8 years ago.
Last edited by n735; Dec 2, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Dec 2, 2009, 8:30 pm
#18
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
I read a lot of message boards on FlyerTalk. This seems to be the only board where anyone questions the hiring practices of management.
I don't work for Midwest. I have never worked for Midwest. Explain to me why I should care about the hiring practices of Midwest ( Republic ) management when I am choosing an airline.
I don't work for Midwest. I have never worked for Midwest. Explain to me why I should care about the hiring practices of Midwest ( Republic ) management when I am choosing an airline.
Why should you care?
1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane
Republic is using less experienced pilots, reducing pilot training to FAA minimums, paying FA so little that they don't feel they need to give the customer service Midwest is known for,... to name a few.
Maybe Republic will change course after buying itself into a Real Airline. Cheap is not alway better in aviation.
Dec 2, 2009, 8:32 pm
#19
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 83
People, you get what you pay for. The heart of YX was torn out when the people that made the brand what it is today were terminated. By the way, all of the YX CSR's will become Frontier employees shortly. Just whose brand do you think will be flying in the next couple of years?
Dec 3, 2009, 5:48 am
#20
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ORD, MDW or MKE
Programs: American and Southwest. Hilton and Marriott hotels primarily.
Posts: 6,459
Why should you care?
1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane
1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane
3 - Sorry, but you have not convinced me that Midwest is an unsafe airline.
Dec 3, 2009, 8:34 am
#21
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: MKE
Programs: Delta Skymiles, Frontier EarlyReturns Summit
Posts: 766
Originally Posted by n735
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
Management people always want to blame labor.
Midwest pilots only asked for industry average wages and benefits. They were willing to fly 19 seat turbo-props if it would help Midwest.
The Facts....
Midwests 10 year Captains pay $128 per flight hour (free labor if the airplane is parked)
AirTrans 10 year Captain pay $144 per flight hour
Southwest 10 year Captain pay $201 per flight hour
Labor costs were not the problem, but a opportunity for Republic with low time, less experienced pilot that have flown an average of say 3 years in the airline industry.
Midwest pilots only asked for industry average wages and benefits. They were willing to fly 19 seat turbo-props if it would help Midwest.
The Facts....
Midwests 10 year Captains pay $128 per flight hour (free labor if the airplane is parked)
AirTrans 10 year Captain pay $144 per flight hour
Southwest 10 year Captain pay $201 per flight hour
Labor costs were not the problem, but a opportunity for Republic with low time, less experienced pilot that have flown an average of say 3 years in the airline industry.
Dec 3, 2009, 10:20 am
#22
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Sussex, WI
Programs: Marriott Platinum, Delta Silver Medallion, Fmr Midwest Miles Executive
Posts: 151
People, you get what you pay for. The heart of YX was torn out when the people that made the brand what it is today were terminated. By the way, all of the YX CSR's will become Frontier employees shortly. Just whose brand do you think will be flying in the next couple of years?
The problem is trying to establish the Frontier brand on the east coast...as mentioned in another thread it is virtually an unknown, whereas Midwest has some name recognition.
But then again, is really anyone going to miss Northwest? Brands disappear all the time and the Republic team will definitely be tested in the creation of their Brand strategy and how they execute.
Dec 3, 2009, 1:24 pm
#23
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
In the end if Frontier comes out as "The Brand" to live on and Midwest dies, does it really matter? As long as Frontier operates the route structure that Midwest has I am more than happy to fly Frontier...They have a great on-board product with DirecTV, they have a decent on-board food menu and their staff has been pretty good in my experience.
The problem is trying to establish the Frontier brand on the east coast...as mentioned in another thread it is virtually an unknown, whereas Midwest has some name recognition.
But then again, is really anyone going to miss Northwest? Brands disappear all the time and the Republic team will definitely be tested in the creation of their Brand strategy and how they execute.
The problem is trying to establish the Frontier brand on the east coast...as mentioned in another thread it is virtually an unknown, whereas Midwest has some name recognition.
But then again, is really anyone going to miss Northwest? Brands disappear all the time and the Republic team will definitely be tested in the creation of their Brand strategy and how they execute.
I agree that the Frontier Brand most likely lives on.
The problem is the Midwest Brand has east coast recognition, has won service awards for years, has a NWA/Delta code-share agreement and can charge a ticket premium over Frontier, AirTran or Southwest.
Is there less downside killing the Frontier Brand? How loyal are DEN passengers to Frontier?
Dec 3, 2009, 2:09 pm
#24
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 344
This is only because Frontier has the human resources technology, man power, and similar benefits to handle Midwest Airlines employees. Republic does not. Right now Midwest doesn't have much of a human resources group as Frontier and Republic have been taking over these responsibilities.
Dec 4, 2009, 11:59 am
#25
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TPA-MKE-PHX
Programs: Ex DL-DM. MM. TWA-Aviator Plat. HHonors-DVIP, MR-Gold. Nat-Emerald. Avis Chairmn.
Posts: 1,925
FYI, You are probably aware that Delta and Northwest have a major merger going on. This ongoing merger entails a massive IT integration effort.
Not to say that Delta does not give a fig about your Midwest flying, but it has its own IT can of worms to deal with with Delta/Northwest.
It'll probably be got to eventually, but I would imagine this is a low priority until Delat Northwest is sorted out.
Not to say that Delta does not give a fig about your Midwest flying, but it has its own IT can of worms to deal with with Delta/Northwest.
It'll probably be got to eventually, but I would imagine this is a low priority until Delat Northwest is sorted out.
Northwest and Delta are merging?? Who knew??
Dec 4, 2009, 2:22 pm
#26
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 150
1, 2 and 4 are part of my experience in using the product. I will evaluate that experience as I use the product and welcome comments on your experiences in using the product. To date, I don't believe you have ever posted about your experiences flying Midwest.
3 - Sorry, but you have not convinced me that Midwest is an unsafe airline.
3 - Sorry, but you have not convinced me that Midwest is an unsafe airline.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125962778738870517.html
One paragraph from the article is a good summary.
...Major airlines aren't immune to serious lapses, as shown in October when a Northwest Airlines plane overshot its Minneapolis destination by 100-plus miles and went radio-silent for 78 minutes. No one was hurt. Yet since 2003 commuter airlines have had a serious-accident rate per 100,000 departures 10 times that of major airlines, according to government and industry data, not to mention scores of unpublicized close calls.
Dec 4, 2009, 11:30 pm
#27
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The views I express here are not necessarily supported by any airline or codeshare partners, nor do I represent their views and/or opinions. They are my own OPINIONS dont like them dont read them.....
Posts: 1,462
Why should you care?
1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane
Republic is using less experienced pilots, reducing pilot training to FAA minimums, paying FA so little that they don't feel they need to give the customer service Midwest is known for,... to name a few.
Maybe Republic will change course after buying itself into a Real Airline. Cheap is not alway better in aviation.
1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane
Republic is using less experienced pilots, reducing pilot training to FAA minimums, paying FA so little that they don't feel they need to give the customer service Midwest is known for,... to name a few.
Maybe Republic will change course after buying itself into a Real Airline. Cheap is not alway better in aviation.
#2 Yeah okay cause they are so much better (rolls eyes)
#3 So when The plane I was working 6 weeks ago hit a flock of birds on landing and had to be towed to the gate my pilots weren't experienced? They were both just furloughed TWA pilots... BTW we lost both engines and glided the rest of the way. We had 24 pax and no injuries
Hey how about my lightning strike on landing in IND at 11k where we lost a chunk of the tail, landing gear doors, static wicks, and popped a tire on the main gear. I had a 3y reserve CA (he left Comair after 6 years) and a reserve 2y FO (he left corporate flying). Now mind you the same bolt of lightning struck a mainline US A319 a rendered its primary electronic useless. I had 86 Pax 4 were UM's a total of 14 under 12, 6 wheelchairs, 2 of those were blind and one was deaf. We landed safely.
Try not to insult people who you haven't a clue about. Not every incident makes it on page one of the WSJ...
#4 I don't know what airline would help you with your kids... I will help you with your bags, I will help you with getting things for your kids, but your kids are YOUR kids not mine. You knew when you bought your tickets what was going to have to be done with YOUR kids.
Okay now for the pay issue. RAH is only on its 2nd contract. Almost every major carrier has at least 5 to 10 amendments to their contracts. When the pilots signed the agreements there weren’t "larger" regional jets and none of the pilots ever thought that there would be a 99 seat aircraft on the property. It takes time to get amazing pay rates as any WN pilot will tell you. Funny those Pilots at US make less than Pilots at RAH on the Ejets.
Now for the F/A's well we are not the least paid in the industry. That little gem belongs to US Airways West side. A step up from them is United. Then NW and OO. All of those on a Monthly basis make less than RAH F/A's. Per hour UA does make more however they have a lower monthly guarantee.
NW has some of the worst work rules. I.e. a reserve picks up a 20 hour 4 day. That 20 hrs goes towards the 75hr guarantee. If the F/A doesn't work any of her reserve days then she will only get 75hrs. If a RAH F/A picks up a 20hr 4 day trip and is available for all reserve days they will get 95hrs of pay.
RAH has one of the highest domestic per diem rates of any carrier at $1.75 per hour starting 45 min. prior to first departure and ending 15 minutes after last block in.
So why do any of us work for RAH. Well it comes down to quality of life. Reserve periods for pilots and F/A's are short at the most 2 years. I personally make over 30k, more than I would if I had a 9-5 in my area where the average wage is less than 20K. I get three weeks of paid vacation and 2 weeks of sick leave. I work 16 days a month or less. Our reserves are guaranteed 11 days off. My health insurance is the best I have ever had. I have flight benefits on 4 carriers (US,UA,F9,YX). I can commute to base. I have agreements with other carriers to use their flights. Did I mention that I only work 4 days a week?
Anything else...
Last edited by cwe84; Dec 5, 2009 at 7:53 am
Dec 5, 2009, 5:04 am
#28
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: National Capitol Region
Programs: Delta Dirt Medallion,AA,USairways, WN Rapid Rewards, National Emerald Club
Posts: 3,912
Okay now for the pay issue. RAH is only on its 2nd contract. Almost every major carrier has at least 5 to 10 amendments to their contracts. When the pilots signed the agreements there weren’t "larger" regional jets and none of the pilots ever thought that there would be a 99 seat aircraft on the property. It takes time to get amazing pay rates as any WN pilot will tell you. Funny those Pilots at US make less than Pilots at RAH on the Ejets.
Anything else...
Dec 5, 2009, 7:51 am
#30
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The views I express here are not necessarily supported by any airline or codeshare partners, nor do I represent their views and/or opinions. They are my own OPINIONS dont like them dont read them.....
Posts: 1,462
Our pilots can't argue anything until more seats are added to the plane. Since RAH's contract is by seats and not aircraft type the company is within the contract.