jsloan

This kind of thinking is akin to suggesting that things are really cheap in the UK because they don't cost a lot of pounds. 30K points at 5 points per dollar is identical to 90K points at 15 points per dollar.

Some perspective for those of you who are freaking out about the category numbers. I promise you that, while there are a lot of things property managers think about, the specific category number in the rewards program isn't one of them. They may care about the reimbursement rate, the availability requirements, and the ratio of award guests to paying guests -- and maybe even the number of points needed to redeem an award, but they don't care if they're "Category 5" or "Category 6."

People who are blindly assuming that "Marriott Category 8" hotels must be "Category 8" in the new system aren't thinking this all the way through.

Here is the actual list of categories in the current program, counting the 3:1 SPG:MR ratio, and ignoring PointSavers, weekend discounts at SPG Category 1 & 2, and the lower end of the range for SPG Category 5-7:

1. Marriott Category 1: 7,500
2. SPG Category 1: 9,000
3. Marriott Category 2: 10,000
4. SPG Category 2: 12,000
5. Marriott Category 3: 15,000
6. Marriott Category 4: 20,000
7. SPG Category 3: 21,000
8. Marriott Category 5: 25,000
9. Marriott Category 6 / RC Tier 1 / SPG Category 4: 30,000
10. Marriott Category 7: 35,000
11. Marriott Category 8 / RC Tier 2: 40,000
12. Marriott Category 9: 45,000
13. SPG Category 5: 48,000
14. RC Tier 3: 50,000
15. RC Tier 4: 60,000
16. RC Tier 5: 70,000
17. SPG Category 6: 75,000
18. SPG Category 7: 105,000

There are 18 (!) different categories, and they're being compressed to 8. Under the current chart, Marriott Category 8 is actually a mid-level award. Is it really that likely that Marriott will fit 1-10 on that list into 7 categories but then 11-18 get squeezed into one single category?

yurtripper

Maybe it's the off-peak rate for the mysterious Cat 9 properties that Lucky of OMAAT kept mentioning.

hockeyinsider

I don't think this is a fair comparison because most of the hotels that folks want to redeem points for stays probably fall between Marriott category 7 and Ritz-Carlton tier 5, so 35,000 to 70,000 points per night. Yes, there are a bunch of good Marriott, Renaissance and J.W. Marriott properties in Asia and elsewhere that can occasionally fall into a much, much lower category but I don't think the vast majority of Marriott Rewards customers are redeeming points for a category 1-4 property.

hockeyinsider

I suspect the J.W. Marriott Grosvenor House in London, the Marriott London County Hall, and the Paris Marriott Champs Elysees will be among those at category 8 in the new chart.

jsloan

No. Most of the hotels you want to redeem at are 35K-70K. I've gotten great value from both Marriott and SPG category 1 & 2 hotel redemptions. It depends upon where you need/want to go, and why, and it's silly to suggest that everyone will always be looking for the same properties.

Besides, that's completely irrelevant to the question of how they're going to be combining the charts. The people who are most freaked out about this are assuming that "Marriott Category 7" means "Combined Category 7" and "Marriott Category 8" means "Combined Category 8." I think it's far more likely that most Marriott Category 7 hotels end up in Combined Category 5 -- 35K points per night -- and Marriott Category 8 and 9 hotels get split between 5, 6, and maybe 7.

Look, it's not like this is some unique opportunity for Marriott. They could have created a Category 10 years ago if they wanted, or they could have made Category 9 worth 60K points per night when it was introduced. They didn't do these things, not because they used to be kind but now are mean, but because it didn't meet their business goals. So, if being at 35K got them the number of redemptions they wanted before, it's likely that they'll keep a property at 35K. They're certainly not going to raise a redemption rate from 35K to 60K just because the category number matches. By the same token, SPG Category 5 properties are more likely to end up in Combined Category 6 than Combined Category 5, even though the category number is different. (And RC Tier 1 properties certainly won't end up in Combined Category 1!)

CPRich

They won't be 95K, which was the question.

CPRich

If that's why people are yelling "massive devaluation!" - because they see the phrase "Category 7" and assume that means it's just a new points level for existing Cat 7, and no property categories will change....

Wow.

(But that must mean RC's that are a 5 are going to be a super duper cheap bargain at the new 5 level.)

hockeyinsider

Not a single person has said or implied that a property at the upper tiers of the legacy Ritz-Carlton award-redemption chart will be a category 4 or 5 in the new, unified program's award-redemption chart. But what multiple people have said is that the Marriott portfolio hotels in the big redemption destinations will almost certainly be category 7 or category 8 when the new award-redemption chart comes into effect.

You're a fool if you think otherwise.

Wisdom

I stayed at the St Regis Bora Bora. It was over 110,000 a night with Starpoints

jsloan

But does that make any sense? Other than the fact that they are currently "Category 8," or "Category 9," what is the rationale for this? They're currently 40-45K per night, and you think they will go to 60K+ because...?

If it makes sense for them to be 60K (or 95K!) on January 1, 2019, it made sense for them to be 60K (or 95K!) on January 1, 2018 or January 1, 2015. Marriott didn't need to wait for a program merger to do this. They could have done it anytime.

Marriott hid categories 10, 11, and 12 in their old program by calling them RC Tier 3-5. You're ignoring that, as well as the top SPG tiers, when you make these "almost certain" claims. If they put Marriott Category 8/9 redemptions into the same categories as SPG Category 6/7 and RC Tier 4/5... well, there aren't going to be an awful lot of top-end Marriott redemptions, are there?

hockeyinsider

If my math is right that's 330,000 Marriott points per night. I'd never pay that, but I've lived on an island in the Pacific.

It looks like the lowest paid rates are around $900-ish a night, according to a quick search. The highest rates I saw were around $3,000 a night. For that price, the St. Regis butler better wipe my butt.

If I really wanted to stay there I'd pay the lowest paid rate to get the points that come with it.

hockeyinsider

Because I suspect they think they can get it. I think 45,000 points a night (let alone some of the paid rates) for the Marriott County Hall or these are category 8 properties is insane. But the reality is people pay because of location. It's like the Marriott and Ritz-Carlton properties on St. Thomas that were destroyed by the hurricanes in September 2017. From what I understand, they had the most award redemptions of any Marriott or Ritz-Carlton property.

Wisdom

I thought it was outrageous too. But, had a great time. Wouldn't do it again unless it came way down.

jsloan

If they thought they could get 60K+/night, they'd already be charging it.

If they put the top JWs and full-service Marriotts into the same categories as the St. Regis / Ritz Carlton / Luxury Collection / Design / etc., the number of redemptions there will drop precipitously, because, all things being equal, most travelers will elect the upscale properties. Why would Marriott want to do that?

If they can get 60K for Marriott Category 7 hotels, they can probably get 150-200K for SPG Category 7... and yet there's no such redemption level on the chart.

zoqfotpik

Here's my guess, SPG properties currently priced more than 85k MR (standard cost for cat 8 starting in Aug) will only be redeemable using points plus cash. Marriott will do this by either blocking availability on standard rooms which leaves you with nonstandard room or suites that can only be redeemed with additional cash, or they can create a list of high-end properties exempted from standard room redemption. I think it's safe to assume that StR Volmulli, W Maldives, Prince de Galles, and the likes will be assigned to cat 8. But since standard rooms will be blocked, you can only redeem nonstandard or suites using 70-100k points plus cash.