CJKatl

Isn't that kind of like saying more people drive Fords than drive Mitsubishis? One hotel company and its marketing program are among the biggest brands in the world while the other is a failed brand with its marketing program being phased out by the second company that agreed to buy it out, after the first reneged. Of course there are more MR members staying at SPG hotels because there are more than double the number of Rewards members than SPG members, but thank you Captain Obvious for taking a break from your Hotels.com commercials to post on FT.

We have all seen an example of a politician who just went out of his way to say how smart he is, making those who do and do not support him think the opposite. The same could be noted about people who need a hotel program to profess wealth, entitlement and superiority. Arguing these things usually hysterically has the opposite impact.

bhrubin

Actually, you're absolutely right on that account--for me, at least. I usually could care less about the breakfast benefit since I love room service if it were me traveling alone! I am never staying at St Regis or Luxury Collection due to the Platinum breakfast benefit.

(It's worth mention that at almost every St Regis property worldwide, it isn't continental breakfast but full breakfast, as much as I want, that is offered to Platinums as the breakfast benefit--obviously above what the SPG Platinum terms guarantee, but a very nice brand perk for St Regis to offer to Platinums. That's been true for us at StR San Francisco, Houston, Princeville, Punta Mita, Dubai, Houston, Rome, Bora Bora, etc. just in the last few years. So while it may not matter as much for ME, it may matter to many people since saving $50-100 per day for 2 persons on full breakfast at St Regis (as it often can cost!) can add up to some significant savings for some people. Obviously, a stay of a 7 nights could potentially save $500-1,000 for breakfast at such properties...and that may matter to other Platinums, even if it doesn't matter to me personally. For Luxury Collection hotels, it varies--some stick to only guaranteeing the stated continental breakfast benefit or comparable value--like our recent stay at the Prince de Galles in Paris--while others provide full breakfast more like St Regis hotels--like our recent stay at the Imperial in Vienna).

But I am spending $500-1,000 per night (usually closer to the lower end, to be fair) at hotels like St Regis or Luxury Collection (rarely W) because I know there's an excellent chance that I will get a significant room or suite upgrade to give much more value-add to my spend compared to staying at the Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons, Peninsula, Mandarin Oriental, Aman, etc. That likelihood of such significant value-add at St Regis and Luxury Collection hotels keeps ME at least staying most often at St Regis and Luxury Collection hotels, rather than the luxury competition. I know spending $500 for a room at the StR is going to likely give me a room that would normally cost $1000 or even $2000 or more--so I save substantial money by choosing the StR over the Four Seasons. Staying at St Regis and Luxury Collection hotels means I almost always can book the entry level room and still get upgraded to much more expensive rooms or suites, sometimes even specialty suites, saving me thousands of dollars for an even more lavish experience and stay. That's extremely appealing to me and to almost all Platinums, I must imagine!

The average Platinum who doesn't stay in luxury hotels probably doesn't enjoy this massive suite upgrade benefit as often as I do because non-luxury hotels typically have fewer suites proportionally than luxury hotels. Marriott is well known for hotels with fewer suites proportional to the number of rooms. So are the midscale and even upscale hotels in SPG like Sheraton, Westin, Le Meridien, etc. But luxury hotels like St Regis, Luxury Collection, and Ritz Carlton, in particular, have many more suites proportionally.

As I am a Plat100, I really experience the best that SPG has to offer, as I almost always get a suite upgrade at even the best luxury hotels, even during periods when they are sold out, and even when I'm on an award stay. So the value-add for me is substantial. So is the value-add impetus for me to reach 100 nights with SPG, because I always get so many incredible upgrades at so many amazing hotels. That also ensures that I choose SPG brands like Westin, Le Meridien, Tribute, Sheraton, and even Four Points as necessary to reach the 100 nights threshold. That's why SPG is so valuable, and that's part of the reason why Marriott paid so much to get SPG.

I'm not pften staying with Ritz Carlton, and I never really have, because there is no comparable value-add (and because I have no interest in RC Clubs, don't think they are luxurious at all, and am of the opinion that RC Clubs actually waters down service for non-Club level rooms/suites and guests). I have stayed at Park Hyatt hotels in the past because they offered the same comparable value-add for Hyatt Diamonds (now Globalists). I will have my first (paid) RC stay in over a decade at RC Boston in April...and then my next for at RC Kyoto for an award stay (since there's no Club!) after an award stay at Luxury Collection's Suiran Kyoto.

bhrubin

I think your analogy is a very poor one. Cars and hotel stays aren't exactly comparable. Nor do I understand how any contrast between Ford and Mitsubishi relates to our topic at hand. Sorry.

I indicated that corporate sources indicated that more Marriott elites are staying at SPG properties than the other way around. That is simply a statement offered in direct contradiction to the OP's premise. That is no indication of wealth, entitlement, or superiority--though it suggest that the SPG program is superior to the Marriott program, which almost all surveys and polls and blogs agree is obvious for most travelers. That has nothing to do with our politics. You are drawing conclusions and making assumptions that have nothing to do with the OP's premise or with the discussion at hand. Sorry.

Who's hysterical?

UA-NYC

...or a free ~$50 (or more, can't remember) amazing buffet & prepared dishes at the St. Regis Bal Harbor that I got on my award stay, which I wouldn't have gotten at the local Edition or RC...it does make a difference for some of us. Luxury properties tend to go above and beyond what mid-tier properties do.

pinniped

Agree with this. MR is many times larger than SPG. It is almost certainly more MR Plats matching and flowing over to SPG than the other way around - it's crazy to think otherwise. And the vast majority of those crossovers aren't even making a statement that one program is better than the other: they know they'll earn points that merge back together at roughly the same rate either direction....they're just branching out into the new options available to them.

I was already active in both, but I can both see where a MR elite is excited about getting to more character/unique properties, and SPG elites are excited about getting stays that "count" in areas previously not well covered by heritage-Starwood brands (or that lacked coverage beyond bland Sheratons).

CCIE_Flyer

Right on. I gather that a lot of SPG folk tend to think rollover nights just roll on and on and on, which they do not.

C17PSGR

Coincidentally, I'm writing this from a Westin suite as a legacy Marriott PP/LTP with 100+ actual Marriott nights last year and 30 actual SPG nights last year, So far this year, I am 4 for 4 in suite upgrades -- with three at Marriott's and tonight at a Westin.

As for the OP's concern, I don't think SPG's are flooding over as Marriott Platinum. SPG requires fewer nights than Marriott to be Plat but I would have a hard time with 100-150 nights a year being an SPG plat because of SPG's limited footprint. CL are busy – sometimes busier than others, but IMHO its because business travel has picked up. The lounges are the same size but there are more business travelers – and more elites. To the extent there are infrequent travelers who get status through some strange program, they don’t travel enough to make a difference.

As for the comparable benefits for platinum's between the programs, I realize there are program loyalists but there is no question that if there was a full service Marriott next door to my Westin and the rates were the same, I would stay there rather than at the Westin. As I see it, the practical benefits as a Platinum in both programs relate to food and suites.

1. Food

At Marriott FS properties, I can get a light breakfast, coffee/soda, and light snacks plus a $10 voucher which gets me a drink at the bar. At SPG properties, I can get a full breakfast but no light snacks, coffee or soda during the day, or a $10 voucher. From an objective basis, I think most people would value the Marriott combo over the breakfast as more. I’d be fairly confident that the actual cost to Marriott is more per guest than providing breakfast only. At most, it’s a wash. When it comes to international properties (other than resorts), the Marriott lounge options are far superior to the SPG breakfast option since they are mostly full breakfasts and extensive dinner options.

Frankly, I don't have time for 130 sit down breakfasts a year

I’ll concede that I appreciate the SPG breakfasts at resort properties where I have more time and that’s certainly a consideration. I recognize the St. Regis/RC breakfast difference but don’t like the vibe at those brands generally so it’s irrelevant to me.

2. Suites

I disagree about the “suite upgrade culture.” The reality is I’m getting upgraded to suites in the 30-40 percent range in both programs – there’s simply no difference – and that’s not taking into account that the Toledo Marriott doesn’t have many “suites.” I was upgraded to suites (but not Club access) at both my RC stays last year.

SPG properties tend to have more suites since they are located in larger cities but don’t upgrade at any higher rates. Obviously, I don’t expect an upgrade when they are sold out or when there is an X5 or SPG 100 ahead of me. Other times, I’m busy and don’t bother to ask. Both programs often require that you ask for a suite upgrade (I was told I had the room I reserved tonight at a Westin, asked for a suite which I saw was for sale, and was quickly upgraded. In contrast, my three Marriott stays this year included an upgrade to a suite without me asking. It's really just a matter of the hotel. Perhaps the difference is that when Marriott doesn’t upgrade Plats to a suite, it’s because they don’t have any availability or aren’t properly trained whereas when SPG doesn’t upgrade Plats to a suite, it’s because they don’t have any availability or have been trained to obfuscate about upgrades even to better rooms, much less suites (ummm … W Scottsdale, Westin Tucson ….) when they obviously have several different upgraded rooms available.

I do appreciate the upgrade culture at Marriott international properties (the Grosvenors, JW HK, Queens Park, South America ...) and some great domestic properties (JW Marquis Miami, Waikiki, Mayflower, BH Marriott) who also proactively upgrade just as I appreciate the W Miami, W West LA, and SLS upgrade culture. I wish every hotel had the upgrade culture of American Airlines where they're happy to make sure every seat is full with anyone eligible who wants to upgrade.

So lets be happy we have the best of both worlds for the moment ...

And can we stop this SPG people are more affluent crud .... I know more about the Marriott transaction than most and that's simply not true. SPG hotels, which were predominately located in larger communities have slightly higher room rates. Apart from the fact tat I'm confident my net worth and annual income is multiples of the typical W guest, SPG has some great aspirational properties but a limited footprint for someone who travels from Boston to Boise and Seattle to Saginaw. The reality is that the Starwood investors know that the real money is not in the properties we like to stay in -- but in CY, Aloft, 4 Points, etc. and when they couldn't expand fast enough for that market, they sold.

pinniped

I know this is all anecdotal, but I've received more upgrades in about 2.5 years (total) as a Starwood Platinum than I have in 10+ as a Marriott Plat (and another 8+ as a Gold). Upgrade defined as a standard one-bedroom suite with a door to the bedroom, not the Presidential Suite.

Marriott has been great to me over the years - never a question about bed/smoke type, always good rooms, high floors, away from elevator, on the C-level, with nice views. The earnings rate as a Plat has always been great, turning my paid stays into Travel Packages every year. But rarely a suite. I have a few really memorable Marriott upgrades - Napa Marriott, Mayflower DC, Seattle Renaissance, KC Muehlbach Downtown, one or two others where I got a great upgrade. But statistically, they're rare, whereas at Starwood it was a 50+% hit rate for me. The super-mundane Sheraton North Dallas *always* gave me a big suite. Just as a garden-variety base Plat.

I've accepted that MR is not an upgrade-centric program. SPG is. That's going to be a jarring change for some members when the programs are merged, if one of those cultures changes.

CJKatl

Thank you for proving the point. Peace out on this topic. My mistake for getting down in the mud.

Kacee

I also think Marriott offers a more consistent product, particularly the service.

That said, I fall in the category of happy to have the flexibility to book, earn, and redeem in both programs, and don't see the need to get caught up arguing which one is better.

bhrubin

First, thanks to @C17PSGR for that wonderful review of most of the major points in this thread. While I don't agree with you on everything, it's a very thoughtful, considered summary.

For the quoted subject above, however, we don't agree. For years, internal and corporate/marketing studies have shown that the SPG customer base is/was was both more affluent (by household income) on average than any other major loyalty hotel chain customer base AND also spent more on average than other customer bases. That includes Marriott, Hilton, InterContinental, Hyatt, Accor, Wyndham, Carlson, etc. Considering that the SPG hotel brands always were more luxury and upscale oriented (and concomitantly cost more on average) than those for any of the other chains, this was and should be a surprise to no one.

It isn't a matter of superiority or pretension or anything negative as is so often painted here and elsewhere on FlyerTalk--it simply reflects that the SPG portfolio was and always has been tilted far more to the upscale and luxury end of the spectrum than is or has been true for Marriott, Hilton, InterContinental, etc. Those hotels cost more, so it's just basic math.

SHLTP

C17PSGR

@bhrubin

I appreciate the analysis from the articles you cite. Frits is a visionary (and a nice guy) and we all benefit from the ideas of Frits and his team. Hopefully, they will continue on in the program even though the Starwood investors wanted to take a different direction from Frits vision.

But ... every business makes most of its money from its top customers. I suspect even Choice makes most of its money from its better customers. Most CEO's recognize and state that -- the best place to grow your business and profitability is always with your existing customers.

That being said, if there was empirical evidence following due diligence to support the affluence gap, it would be in the S-4.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...m#toc105833_43

Instead, the S4 states:Combining Starwood’s well-known and respected lifestyle brands and international footprint with Marriott’s strong presence in the luxury and limited-service tiers, as well as Marriott’s convention and resort segment, will create a more comprehensive and desirable portfolio for guests, meeting planners and hotel developers;
From your posts, you and others like those lifestyle brands and international footprint but that's really an issue of personal preference rather than wealth or affluence.

As for me, I agree with the board -- and like that combination.

Now .. if they (a) keep the quality of lounges at the Marriott historical standard, (b) keep breakfast at a resort, (b) have all properties in both programs upgrade their best customers, (c) keep 4 PM check out and ambassador, and (d) have some W GM's tell their staff to give priority to guests rather than those hanging out at the pool or sharing a room with 6 people and a cooler.. I'll be happy to keep staying 100 nights a year at Marriott's and Renn's with lounges with the occasional Westin for work and another 30-40 nights a year at JW and legacy SPG lifestyle properties.

Maybe we can all agree on that!

hockeyinsider

FYI: Most of the rates at the Ritz-Carlton Langkawi seem to include breakfast, at least when I searched the property a few weeks ago.

CCIE_Flyer

In the not too distant future, it will be moot (note: not mute) which is/was better, as neither will exist.

I think a lot of us (well, I do, anyway) probably view this as similar to the CO/UA merger. We had fiercely devout disciples on both sides of the isle going in, but we were each of us powerless observers to the process. I, for one, miss the heyday of UA - a lot. But, I do appreciate how Central and South America really opened up with the combining of the route networks; it wasn't 100% negative for the hapless traveler.