How valuable points are and which hotel loyalty program is worst is entirely dependent on (1) how you earn points and (2) what types of hotels you want to use points.

If you earn points by staying at the hotels, they all are more or less the same, to be honest. You earn more points for your spend at Hilton and Marriott compared with Starwood and Hyatt, but Starwood and Hyatt require fewer points for their hotel awards.

If you earn points by credit card spend, the Hilton and Marriott awards are ridiculously harder to achieve than the Starwood and Hyatt awards--because the typical 1 point per $1 spend has more value with Starwood and Hyatt because their awards cost less. Marriott and Hilton have top award levels of up to 45,000 or 50,000--but cost up to 70,000 for top tier Ritz Carlton and up to 80,000 for Waldorf Astoria. Compare that to top tier Hyatt and Starwood hotels (including Park Hyatt and St Regis) being 30,000-35,000. If you spend $50,000 on a credit card (with no bonus categories) and get 50,000 points, those points go a LOT farther with Hyatt and Starwood then Marriott or Hilton.

The irony is that Marriott makes it MUCH harder to accumulate the points for awards at its top tier properties than Starwood or Hyatt...even though Starwood and Hyatt both have far more and/or far nicer top tier properties.

If you want awards at the more aspirational higher tier/category hotels, then Hyatt and Starwood clearly are the winners. Hilton and Marriott cost way more...even though Hyatt and Starwood have more aspirational options. Marriott has Ritz Carlton but they cost a lot more than Starwood's St Regis or LuxCollection or W or Park Hyatt/Grand Hyatt/Andaz. Hilton has Waldorf Astoria but there aren't that many of those.

If you want awards at lower tier/category properties, on the other hand, your points might go farther with Marriott or Hilton--since you can accumulate them as fast or faster and they don't cost much more than Hyatt or Starwood. But mid-tier properties still cost a significant amount more for Marriott and Hilton than they do for Starwood and Hyatt.

I agree that Marriott is a bit better than Hilton...but not much better.

Starwood and Hyatt points are far better for anyone wanting awards at more upscale/full service hotels. They are clearly better for anyone wanting awards at the high end of hotels. Of course, Marriott and Hilton have far more properties in far more locations. But for higher end hotels, most of these chains have upscale properties in most major urban centers and the most popular holiday destinations.

Of course, Marriott absorbing Starwood means that only Hyatt offers a real deal. It also means Marriott will have the most aspirational properties by far after its merger.

Of course, Starwood (will have been) the hotel program with the second-worst "footprint" of the majors, and Hyatt is (and will remain) the worst "footprint" of the majors.

And that poorer "footprint" is one of the major reasons why Hyatt (and SPG up until the near future) can afford to have a program that way bigger hotel families don't feel they can. They need something to attract people to make up for that poorer "footprint".

It's true that Marriott and Hilton have much larger "footprints" because they have many more properties overall.

However, that can be a false narrative for anyone looking mostly in major cities (where even Starwood's 2500+ properties or coming properties can compete)...or in the major holiday destinations around the world (where Starwood is as well situated as the bigger chains)...or, in particular, in the luxury segment (where Starwood's St Regis, Lixury Collection, and W properties total 255+ and exceed in absolute number whatever Marriott and Hilton offer and far exceed Marriott or Hilton for properties considered aspirational by those who regularly stay at luxury hotels.

Consider that over 3/4 of Marriott's portfolio has been less than upscale...while almost 90% of Starwood's portfolio is upscale or better. Hilton has an even greater proportion of less than upscale properties, and IHG is even greater. If you're looking for cheaper hotels, those chains serve you well...but not for nicer hotels. Marriott will remedy that with the addition of Starwood, of course...but that won't really make a difference until 2018 when the programs merge.

You are choosing what I think is the absolute lowest period rate wise to check. Are rooms available in February? Do the math for that stay, bet you the value is double.

It's a mistake to compare hotel cards on the basis of earning 1 point/dollar. Hilton points certainly are worth less apiece than SPG and Hyatt points, but Hilton makes its credit cards competitive by always paying MORE than 1 point/dollar. HH Surpass (Amex) pays 6 points/dollar on restaurants, gas, and grocery stores-- which together are a significant portion of my non-travel expenditure. I've made it my primary card for these categories.

who to contact
 

This is the email i received

Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi received your emails regarding your concerns with Marriott Vacation Club. Attorney General Bondi asked that I respond.


At the state level, the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation (DBPR) regulates timeshare plans in this state, pursuant to chapter 721, Florida Statutes (see www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes). We are forwarding your correspondence to the DBPR for review. Please contact the agency directly to follow up at:

Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation
Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes
2601 Blair Stone Road
Tallahassee, Florida 32399
Telephone: (850) 488-1122
Website: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/timeshare.html
FAQs: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr...shareFAQs.html

You can also find helpful information and consumer tips about timeshare and vacation plans online at:

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles...vacation-plans
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/topics/...sumer-problems

The Florida Bar offers a Lawyer Referral Service toll-free at (800) 342-8060 or online at http://www.floridabar.org/lawyerreferral. If you need help locating an attorney in your area, you may call the California Bar at (866) 442-2529 or visit http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Lawy...rvicesLRS.aspx.

Thank you for contacting Attorney General Bondi's office. I hope this proves helpful.


Also you can contact Richard at Dept of business and professional regulation, timeshare sector at 407-650-4076 or write hi at the address 400 west Robinson, suite N908, Orlando , Florida 32801

Yep, that's what I was talking about! USA credit cards can make a huge difference to earn and burn rates and the value each scheme can provide.

For non-North American residents this can be a pretty binary discussion as hotel loyalty credit cards are few and far between and not very rewarding. As a result each scheme can be looked at against points per $ on stays and elite bonuses. As an EU resident my North American road trip last year that mixed staying in capital cities (Ottawa & DC), big cities (Montreal, Toronto and NYC), tourist (Niagara) and small towns, Marriott was marginally the best earn and burn with IHG/SPG fighting for close second and Hilton a clear last.

I stand corrected. It is not give away. In my mind, I was thinking more like you could buy top elite status from credit card spent. You can do it with Marriott and Hilton but not with SPG or Hyatt. SPG only gives Gold and Hyatt only Plat.. which only gives you free internet pretty much.

It's awfully hard to buy top-tier MR status with credit card spend. After the initial 15 nights from carrying the MR Visa card you'd need to spend $180,000 on the card to earn the other 60 nights required to reach Platinum. Comping status for $180k spend is not a giveaway.

Ritz CC will give you gold in the first year (10k spend in subsequent years for Gold) or Plat after 75k.

If you like Hilton hotels, you absolutely are correct that the HHilton Surpass Amex is a nice deal as long as you aren't trying to redeem for their top tier properties costing 60-80K points--which largely mitigates the better earning for gas, restaurants, and groceries for most people. Fair point, indeed!

Unfortunately, Hilton has so few upscale or luxury hotels that I enjoy that it's just not of much interest to me, personally. The Conrads and few Waldorfs just can't get me excited about Hilton...as if the ridiculous redemption rates don't make it less worthwhile for me compared to the top tier properties in Starwood, Hyatt, etc.

It was the RC card with $75K spent. It was not giveaway, but it does allow you to purchase top elite status. I don't really stay at RC, but Marriott is great. I bought both Hilton and Marriott top status so I could take vacations with credit card points getting room upgrade, free breakfast, free internet, etc... and with Marriott plat I am also now United Silver. And also Hertz and Avis elites.

I never travel for work so there is no way I could have gotten any status with anything travel related if not for credit cards.

BTW - I think we've all answered the OP's question - it's him/her ;) :p :D

Cheers.

Actually, in the "Luxury" segment of the STR Global Chain Scales for 2016 there are 38 St. Regis, 102 Luxury Collection, and 49 W properties currently open worldwide. This compares to 99 Ritz Carlton, 84 JW Marriott, 5 Edition, and 4 Bulgari properties currently open worldwide in the Marriott family. So there are more Marriott branded properties currently operating under that definition of Luxury segment than SPG branded properties (192 Marriott, 189 SPG).

"Aspirational" is very much in the eye of the beholder. It also IMO doesn't depend on being assigned a particular brand by a hotel chain. Earlier this year I stayed at the ITC Maurya (a Luxury Collection Property). The property is quite nice, but you can see the view from my window at the bottom of this post. Even though it's a Luxury Collection property I personally don't consider it "aspirational". I also don't consider the Ritz Carlton Kapalua to be aspirational. YMMV!

Again, it depends entirely on how you define "upscale". Based on your assessment that almost 90% of the SPG portfolio is upscale or better, there must be a great many of what you consider "upscale" 4 Points and Aloft properties since those brands constitute over 23% of the currently operating SPG properties.

As to definitions of what constitutes "upscale", the STR Global Chain Scales say one thing, and our personal experiences tell us another. Based on the STR scales all of the SPG brands, and all but Fairfield Inn, MOXY, and TownePlace Suites are considered "upscale" or better (those 3 MR brands constitute about 25% of MR's properties BTW). The STR grading is apparently based on average room rates rather than overall quality, so they don't actually say very much about what matters to us IMO.

We all have our own personal definitions of "upscale" and "aspirational". I'm sure others will come along and provide their own personal examples...

View of the adjacent area from my room at the ITC Maurya:

I stand corrected for the total luxury properties available as of now. However, you can't use points at Bulgari properties, so SPG technically has more luxury properties available usng points now (189 SPG, 188 Marriott)--which was the original point.

Insofar as using points go, the SPG luxury properties require far fewer points or comparable spend to achieve those points compared with Marriott or Hilton or IHG. Of course, that becomes moot once Marriott merges programs with Starwood.

I used upscale based entirely on the same STR categorization you used above. My point is that almost 3/4 of Marriott properties are below the upscale category--or below what almost anyone would qualify as aspirational--whereas the entire SPG portfolio is upscale or above. Again, that will become moot in 2018.

As I said, Marriott is not the worst, but it isn't the best. It probably will get better after merging programs with Starwood--but that remains to be seen until 2018.

You used the term "absolute number" and didn't qualify based on availability to use points. The simple fact is that the narrative that there are vastly more top end properties in SPG compared to MR is inaccurate.

This argument has been hashed out many times since the merger was announced. My experience is that for purely hotel spend as a top level elite in either program I've received better hotel redemption value per dollar spent with MR than with SPG. The SPG Amex OTOH clearly offers better redemption value than any of the MR branded CCs for miscellaneous (non-hotel) spend.

That is incorrect. The only MR brands that are below "Upscale" on the STR rankings are Fairfield Inn, MOXY, Protea, and TownePlace Suites (I missed Protea in my earlier post). Those four MR brands constitute less than 27% of MR's properties.

Garbage... Actually
 

So basically (if I have this right) you spend $10,000 for every 100 dollars..

Or on the flip side, as a MR Plat I can spend $1250 at a Marriott property and along with my Visa card earn 25,000 points and redeem these points at the JW Phu Quoc where nightly rates are $400-$600 which is a very nice return on spend/redemption ;)

Yes, converting Chase points to Marriott points is a bad deal.

For $10,000 spent at Marriott properties I would earn 200,000 MR points. 10 pts/$ + 50% Plat bonus + 5 pts/$ for using MR Visa.

200K points yields 5 nights at a Cat 9 hotel (180K points) total value $1800-2700 and 20K points left over.

It's always best to use points/miles in the program from which they were accrued. The only exception would be MR Hotel + Air Travel Packages combined with airline bonus offers, but that's another discussion.

While Chase/Chase Sapphire is good for the infrequent traveler, those of us that travel frequently use affinity cards associated with the programs we use and are most beneficial to us. I'm sure there are a lot better things for which to use Chase points than converting to Marriott points.

So to answer the OP's question, to a great extent it is you because converting Chase points to Marriott points is a bad deal, not that Marriott itself is bad deal. Actually Marriott has one of the best earn to burn ratios out there; but that's within its program.

While I agree that converting Chase UR to Marriott is a bad value, this I must strongly disagree with. CSP is probably the single best all around points earning card out there, with great bonus categories, outstanding insurance benefits, and several excellent transfer partners (including SQ, UA, BA, KE, and Hyatt). Just don't transfer your UR points to Marriott.

In fact, for Marriott stays, the CSP gives essentially the same return as the Chase Marriott, at around 4.5%.

Not the smart ones. Sapphire is by far the best card out there. No other card gives a consistent 4.5% return.

OK, I must admit I'm not that familiar with Chase Sapphire, so I went and did a check on it for my travel pattern. Example my QR J award flight from DOH-HND runs $2910.13 if paid for with cash.

I booked this using AA FF miles for 40K miles + $13.05. So using an AA CC at 2 miles earned per spent on AA tickets, so $20,000 spend. FYI, I'm only using this for comparison as I don't have an AA CC as I earn enough miles from travel.

With Chase Sapphire reserve I would earn points at 3x points/$ spent on travel as best I can tell and according to info from Google on Chase Ultimate Rewards redemptions (points guy, etc since Chase's web site is not friendly from a rewards redemption perspective - it probably is if you're signed in) the best return appears to be redeeming 50K points for $750 value. So the $2910.13 ticket would cost 194K points as best I can tell. Or, a better redemption appears to be transferring Chase points to BA and get a BA award for 75000 Avios + $ 110.44. So in other words $25,000 spend.

So quite close IMO.

Now when using Chase Ultimate Rewards for Hotel awards, does one have to book advanced payment/non-refundable rates when using Chase points? Without the info readily available, it's really hard to tell.

As I mentioned earlier I was unable to find details on redeeming Chase points, so if you have a link to the details it would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if it would be something that works well with my travel paradigm or not, but it would be worth investigating. Thanks.

The best use of Chase UR points is to transfer them to a partner, not direct purchases of travel. Their transfer partners are excellent.

Also, the CSP (or CSR) offers outstanding travel insurance if you use it to pay for the ticket, which is not offered by your Citi AA card. So it's really not accurate just to compare points earning. But FYI, the typical valuation of a Chase UR point is around 2.2 cents, while AA miles are valued at around 1.4 cents (these are TPG's valuations).

I have a whole bunch of cards for different programs, and CSP gets the bulk of my spend. It's always a competitive choice, and often the best choice.

beats hilton/IHG at least for size and upscale
can transfer to/from starwood at the moment

so "worst" for what exactly, vs "who" exactly

No question about it, Marriott is the worst points program. Period. It doesn't even matter, "Worst at what?" It's the worst at everything. You should just leave your points and status behind and stay somewhere else.

(More upgrades for me!)

:D :D