Flying for Fun

Are yould taking about the T&C's of the existing program, the T&C's of the transition period or the T&C's of the yet to be named New Program starting in February?

It is their program, they can choose to change it however they see fit. They have their best interest in mind, not yours. Right now it is a balance of minimizing their costs while maximizing the number of MR/SPG members who aren't sufficiently peeved to move along. Not everybody will be happy no matter how it goes.

James

lexdevil

The T & C of the current Travel Package, as that is what folks are redeeming for until the new program comes into effect.

I said it would be grossly unfair, not that they could not do it. That said, I think the public reaction to forced cancelation of certificates without notice would be bad enough that Marriott either will not do it, or will backtrack after the furor that ensues when they do.

It is their program and the terms allow them to make changes pretty much whenever they please, but changes like this without notice will destroy customer faith in theIr program and, as a result, customer loyalty. You are correct about the balancing act. A move like this will not strike the balance they are looking for.

Flying for Fun

Deleted.

Flying for Fun

I can't say that I entirely agree here. The MR/SPG Members on this thread make up a very small percentage of the membership pool. Even at that, not everyone on this thread has the required points to redeem for a Travel Package. It is very probable many members don't even know how many points they have, nevermind what a Travel Package is, and it is probable that others who spend 50+ nights a year don't even have a loyalty membership. While there may be furor here, the overall sound from the entire membership, is but an "under breath" mumble. Only Marriott knows the numbers and can do their cost/benefit analysis to decide if it is audible enough to warrant concern.

What I find most amusing beyond all the speculation and the best way to "game" the system is that people in this thread honestly believe that Marriott owes them something for their Loyalty beyond what they have already provided during their stays. If they didn't get their guarantees during their stays there is a compensatory remedy. Beyond that, they have no further obligation to them. Just because you accumulate points in Marriotts Program does, in no way, guarantee a redemption. The points are just points, no more, no less and have no monetary value and no intrinsic value.

Everyone can do as they see fit with their "points." I am not here to tell anyone what they should or should not do with their "points." Just remember that they are only "points" and fraudulently (gaming?) using "points" usually ends up in having no "points."

For a good read! From Marriott Rewards.

Marriott Rewards membership and its benefits are offered at the discretion of Marriott. Marriott and its travel partners have the right, without limitation, to change, limit, modify or cancel Program Rules, regulations, rewards, and reward levels at any time, with or without notice, even though such changes may affect the value of points or miles already accumulated, the ability to use accumulated points or miles, or the ability to obtain certain rewards. Marriott and its travel partners may, among other things:

• increase or decrease the number of points or miles received for a stay or required for a reward;
• withdraw, limit, modify, or cancel any reward or category;
• add blackout dates, limit rooms available for reward redemption at any participating hotel, change or restrict participating hotels, or otherwise restrict the continued availability of rewards;
• change program benefits, travel partners, locations served by Marriott or its travel partners, conditions of participation, rules for earning, redeeming, retaining, or forfeiting points or miles, or rules governing the use of rewards;
• change or cancel its travel partner rewards. The accumulation of points or miles does not entitle members to any vested rights with respect to points, miles, rewards, or program benefits. In accumulating points or miles, members may not rely upon the continued availability of any reward or reward level.

Only Marriott knows how many certificates are "floating." If they need to manage that number, Marriott may think an account with multiples would be a good place to start.

In a few more weeks everyone will have the answers they are looking for.

James

lexdevil

As I said, I am fully aware that Marriott can do whatever it darn well pleases. Quoting the T & C was not needed. I do, however, think that the "sound" from an unannounced certificate cancellation and significantly discounted value would be loud, and its echo would be heard by far more Marriott Rewards members than were directly affected by the cancellation. It would be such an arbitrary action that it would frighten other members and make them wonder what else Marriott might snatch back from them.

Saying that members "may not rely upon the continued availability of any reward or reward level" is a bit different than saying that members may have rewards that they have already redeemed cancelled without notice and with inadequate compensation. I believe that the T & Cs you cite mean that a MR member does not have a complaint when, after they have been saving for ages towards an award, Marriott cancels that award type or raises its price before the member is able to redeem for it.

It goes without saying that we can do as we please with our points. I plan to order two Travel Packages before the end of the month, as I value the more generous mile transfer opportunity. I tend to redeem for 1-2 Travel Packages each year, so this just accelerIates that timetable.

I will probably attach the certificates, but they'll need to be detached at a later date because the dates I need are not yet open. I am a teacher and have a very small window for my vacation. Unattached/floating or detached later, I don't expect Marriott to give me a windfall points conversion for the certificates (as some fantasize), but I do expect to be treated fairly.

I can't figure out if I should be insulted by your comments about "fraudulently (gaming?)" the system. How is redeeming points I have earned for a published benefit fraudulent? Or are you talking about something else? Some Marriott Rewards members do sketchy stuff, but this doesn't seem like one of those occasions.

Counsellor

Yes, but it's still not clear to me whether he was speaking of all certificates (including the Travel Package ones) or just the free night certificates you get on annual credit card renewal and through promotions. Does anyone remember clarification on that point?

Flying for Fun

My apologies if you thought I was signaling you out, that was not my intent. My comments were directed to the community, not to you specifically.

Perhaps this is not one of those occasions, but a sudden uptick in partial redemptions (FF miles sent, certificate floating) may ultimately determine what Marriott decides to do with them. The certificate has a residual value, just not 150K.

Remember, Marriott has to buy those FF miles for you. That is a direct cost to them. Marriott's direct cost of the stay is significantly lower and completely within their control. For Marriott branded hotels within the portfolio not directly owned by Marriott will also bare some of those costs.

James

pinniped

All of the credit card free nights are being stated as "max points" certificates.

The Travel Packages are being stated as Category certificates. Based on the new rates we're paying for them, it's clear that the calculation is based on peak rates (and it's still a devaluation even with that).

So I don't interpret the credit card rules as meaning their going to create a one-off "7-nights 150,000 point" certificate. I suspect we're just going to get Cat 4 certificates. Perhaps the system will be smart enough to keep our individual expiration dates intact, or perhaps they'll just issue them all as July 31, 2019.

tth6133

Where did you get that information? Starwood Lurker has clearly stated that unattached TP certificates ARE floater certicates, and as such, are to be converted to "points" (likely point-based certificates), not category-based certificates. Otherwise, how would you convert a current cat-6 certificate? Or a cat-8? Or a cat-9?

SimpleManToo

Thanks

Counsellor

Found the answer to my question in this post over on the SPG forum: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29769692-post1198.html

That is a really great post, and has much information and answers nearly every question one might have. (Thanks, William!) I had not seen it, and I recommend it (or the Wiki at the SPG thread) to anyone who has unanswered questions.

There are two answers that may apply to my question:

and Although the second group of questions refers to the Chase credit card free night certificates and SPG reservations, the answer is in general terms and would seem to apply to travel package award certificates as well, although that is just an inference. It does raise an interesting question, though, which I'll leave for a separate post.

Happy

BOTH - he answered that more than once when people kept asking for clarification.

IIRC the last post he referred to the Floater certs he made it clear that "ALSO" incl the unattached TP certs.

It is not that hard to read Lurker's own posts related on the above, You can search his posts and you should be able to find the "original" with the first 2 to 3 pages of his recent posts.

I believe it is to own self's interest to actually read Lurker's posts so to fully understand / know, what have been clarified what still remain as clear as mud / missing any information.

At a minimum, one should follow the Sticky in SPG forum because William has said, many times, if he has anything he could post regarding the status of the Floater certs, he would post in the Sticky first thing.
Wiki has lots of information too. No more questions are allowed but whatever he could answer / update, are there.

carlitos

I thought Marriott DID NOT own any hotel anymore, except for a very few strategic assets, like the Phoenix Sheraton, which is going to be the flagship hotel for Sheraton's revival worldwide. Other than that, Marriott is now a Hotel Company (Brand) and Management Company only. That means Franchisees are the ones who own all the hotels (REITs and Hotel Companies with plenty of assets under many brands).

So, Marriott gets a fee from marketing, loyalty, website, etc. for every room in the system that gets sold. It has to be in the franchisee's franchise agreement and usually around 5-6% of the room rate. So it is from that fee that Marriott gets to pay the hotels for the rooms sold through Marriott Rewards. Now, I am pretty sure that if a hotel closes at 100% occupancy for the night, the rate Marriott pays for that room to the specific hotel is way higher than if the hotel was half full. So it varies completely and depends on Revenue Management expectancy of a 100% occupancy. That is specifically why I loved the SPG last room availability for points. It was insane for us and could end up costing SPG a lot. I remember finding a room in Houston during last super bowl with my points on an almost sold out city and I was not even there for the super bowl. All in all, that Four Points by Sheraton was selling at $500 USD a night in Houston, NOT NYC on a Saturday and Sunday. I am pretty sure Starwood did not pay $500 to that property for my reward nights.

So it is NOT under Marriott's control 100%, as it depends if the hotel closed above 95% Occupancy or it did not. Franchisees will also lose revenue by not getting the expected ADR on a 100% Occupancy and instead getting a high rate from Marriott Rewards, but well bellow the ADR.

vandesa

I know I need some AA miles for a Fiji trip I am taking in 2020 that I want to use biz class rewards on, so I am wanting to get the points in place for that. I do not necessarily need a Cat 1 - 5 7 night stay, but just doing the math it makes sense for me to "risk" having the cert converted at some horrible rate, how bad can that rate really be?

Not even going to 270K package, but just looking at were the two calculation methods (airline points + bonus VS TP package) are closest, 250K TP package, yields 100,000 AA miles + the cert. A straight line conversion of 240K would yield 100,000 AA Miles and NO cert. So if I get 10K back for not booking the cert then it will be a zero sum game. If I get more, then bonus. If I get less, than wow Marriott would really be pissing people off.

So I think I am going that route, but with the 270K package, 20K more Marriott get 20K more American it is 1:1 convertion for that peice might as well take it. I have been using more Chase UR lately than individual point program chasing. (Pun intended.) I don't use the hotel choices a much, but I love the UR for the booking air.

On my beating the devaluation efforts history....
I was able to book and stay a 15 night stay in Conrad Maldives before the last Hilton devaluation. That was so worth the 36K per night vs the 95K per night. I also got the Hilton value before the devaluation before that for the 100K for a 7 night Hawaii stay. I have no current Marriott Plans to take advantage out of the last gasp before this devaluation. I do actually have more Hilton points at this time than Marriott anyway, so might as well make it work.

joeags

Stupid math mistake Nothing to see other than embarrassment!