Marriott on a mission to weed out the gamers
Feb 6, 2020, 7:32 pm
#76
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: PHX, ICN
Programs: OZ Diamond Plus, Marriott Gold
Posts: 502
Sure, there will be a few of those, but I think this is where a lot of people lose sight of the purpose of loyalty programs. They only cost Marriott if people use the benefits. So, a few examples:
- Someone who spends 100 nights at Marriotts @ $150/nt. provides $15k/year. Uses a lot of benefits, even a heavy user maybe gets $30/night, so it nets out to $120 or $12k.
- Someone who goes on their honeymoon for 10 nights and spends $1,200/night at a luxury property. $12k in revenue but uses no benefits on the trip. No offset. They gain status on the trip but aren't frequent travelers so don't really use the benefits. Later than year, they book a weekend getaway at a Marriott just because they'll get free breakfast for their status.
In both cases, these are valuable customers. And the second case is a win for Marriott because they get additional revenue that they likely wouldn't have earned otherwise.
This thread started out with the premise of weeding out gamers. People who spend a lot on honeymoon at a Marriott are NOT gamers. I'm not saying a spend-based program is the best thing for Marriott to do, but was originally responding to someone who thought that money spent at luxury properties should count more than money spent at low-end brands.
- Someone who spends 100 nights at Marriotts @ $150/nt. provides $15k/year. Uses a lot of benefits, even a heavy user maybe gets $30/night, so it nets out to $120 or $12k.
- Someone who goes on their honeymoon for 10 nights and spends $1,200/night at a luxury property. $12k in revenue but uses no benefits on the trip. No offset. They gain status on the trip but aren't frequent travelers so don't really use the benefits. Later than year, they book a weekend getaway at a Marriott just because they'll get free breakfast for their status.
In both cases, these are valuable customers. And the second case is a win for Marriott because they get additional revenue that they likely wouldn't have earned otherwise.
This thread started out with the premise of weeding out gamers. People who spend a lot on honeymoon at a Marriott are NOT gamers. I'm not saying a spend-based program is the best thing for Marriott to do, but was originally responding to someone who thought that money spent at luxury properties should count more than money spent at low-end brands.
A honeymooner is exactly who you want to gift with status for an out of the ordinary spend. Part of a loyalty program's purpose is to entice new customers; someone who drops $10K at a property for a week but never spends more than $100 on a hotel otherwise will absolutely consider spending any hotel nights in a Marriott for the rest of their elite window, and consider earning back to status with them afterwards.They may even pay more for a pricier hotel to get a better stay. Experience perks have a long revenue tail.
Marriott has 30 brands not just to make people at the luxury hotels feel special, but to help pull people up the spending chain as they earn/spend more in their lives. Yesterday's Springhill Suites customer is today's Sheraton visitor is tomorrow's Ritz executive. A $10K honeymooner with a 1-time spend is potentially the future lower-margin/higher revenue 100-night a year traveler.
If the program was only to reward people already there, it would inevitably decline as membership outflow is constant (if for no other reason than people die, or OPM traelers lose/switch jobs). Whether Marriott's service has declined is an entirely different question. If you entice people but they are dissatisfied with the (service) product is not strictly the loyalty program's issue. But of course it's what management must focus on; it just feels like a different discussion than what's essential to this thread.
Feb 6, 2020, 7:52 pm
#77
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: TPA
Programs: BA Silver; Hilton Gold; IHG Diamond Ambassador; Marriott Gold
Posts: 2,811
That type of business is absolutely not what the CC companies are looking for. Few companies, especially in travel, release such an offer for people to "break even," as is discussed to death here. Look at luxury programs like IHG's Royal Ambassador and American Express Centurion. They don't have a published entry level because they aren't looking for people to do just enough or try to game their way in, they want a specific type of clientele. That's what they also hope for with these premium CCs. Premium clientele that will use them for everyday spend for both companies to win on. To think that any CC company wants you to carry their hotel card only to use it to pay off the room, and burn through perks and credits, is laughable.
Feb 6, 2020, 8:51 pm
#78
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria, B.C.
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, AA Gold LT
Posts: 1,940
Maybe the thread should be renamed to Marriott's on a mission to reduce value in their program.
Feb 6, 2020, 11:07 pm
#79
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The World
Programs: WS Platinum, Marriott Titanium, DL Gold, UA Silver
Posts: 1,478
I don’t think it’s so much about Marriott trying to weed out the “gamers” or the cheaters. I really feel like they’re relying on their size and scale and dominant position in so many markets to - as you said - reduce value in the program. It’s a cost to them. When you’re as big as they are today, they probably don’t need to spend so much to create loyalty.
While I have access to many more properties, I no longer have anywhere near as much access to award rooms “per property” as I did before. (I’m legacy SPG.) Now, the definition of a “standard room” is much, much narrower, and there are disguised blackout dates and capacity controls.
My stays rarely post accurately, and Marriott doesn’t seem to care to fix it. I am sick and tired of filling out that stupid web form for corrections, only to receive a form letter, and a correction that often needs to be re-corrected.
My earn rate on everything is less than it used to be. Meanwhile the price on rewards keeps spiraling upwards.
When I was SPG Platinum, I felt like I belonged to something special — and coming to a hotel honestly felt like coming somewhere where I was genuinely welcomed and appreciated. With the size and scale of the new Marriott, and the cookie-cutter mentality applied to so many properties, I’m just a number now — as a Titanium.
When I call in to Marriott for help, it’s rarely a great experience. It’s just a run of the mill blechh call center experience that usually leaves me underwhelmed.
But I occasionally get free breakfasts. Or lounge access. But for the life of me I can’t tell you what benefits I get where ... it’s become confusing and complicated. And at this point, my loyalty is waning enough that I’m losing interest in bothering to figure it all out.
I really do think there’s a broad devaluation happening. For everyone — not just gamers and cheaters. Marriott is so massive right now, with such a dominant footprint in North America, that I wonder if their leadership are just thinking “so what, it’s not like they can really go anywhere else”.
And I think that’s largely true. My loyalty to Marriott now is really only because they have a lot of properties everywhere I travel. And their competitors really don’t. So as much as I complain or miss the “good ol days”, I really can’t abandon Marriott — even if I wanted to.
They know that a lot of us are in that same position. They’re devaluing - and gradually starving the benefit (and cost) out of Bonvoy - because they can.
I hope they prove me wrong.
Feb 6, 2020, 11:14 pm
#80
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL, OZ, AC, AS, AA, BA, Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott, IHG
Posts: 19,899
Unless I'm mistaken, the Marriott-SPG merger happened because the US government opposed a Chinese conglomerate snapping up SPG. I'm aware that Hyatt and SPG couldn't reach an agreement. I would have been happy with a Chinese owned SPG because it would have prevented Marriott from being too big.
Feb 6, 2020, 11:36 pm
#81
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: None - previously UA
Posts: 4,864
Getting rid of your least valuable customers so that perks are more meaningful to your highest valuable customers is a good trade off.
Looking at the macro level, there are just so many redemption room nights to be had and those are being chased by just so many customers. It is in Marriott's best interest to do what it can to push those redemptions to otherwise valuable customers.
Looking at the macro level, there are just so many redemption room nights to be had and those are being chased by just so many customers. It is in Marriott's best interest to do what it can to push those redemptions to otherwise valuable customers.
Feb 7, 2020, 2:00 am
#82
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: fwp blood diamond, dykwia uranium
Posts: 7,251
It seems to me that Marriott Bonvoy has been on a mission to weed out the travel gamers/hackers. They eliminated the following tricks:
Marriott also maliciously refused to disclose the legacy to new travel package conversion mappings in advance
Did Marriott hire a travel hacker or flyertalker to counsel them about weeding out the free loaoders or is this resulting from complaints/snitching from DYKWIA on Other People's Money or rich members who wanted to keep the riffraff away from their lounges and luxury properties ?
- Meetings that earn elite nights to earn status quickly and for cheap
- Rollover elite nights
- Combining multiple 15 elite nights earned from holding multiple Bonvoy credit cards
- Churning Amex and Chase Bonvoy cards simultaneously for the welcome bonuses
- Speculative points advance bookings that lock rates to beat category changes
- Gaining status that gives access to free breakfast and lounge access just from holding a credit card
- Travel (miles and stay) packages that are valuable.
Marriott also maliciously refused to disclose the legacy to new travel package conversion mappings in advance
Did Marriott hire a travel hacker or flyertalker to counsel them about weeding out the free loaoders or is this resulting from complaints/snitching from DYKWIA on Other People's Money or rich members who wanted to keep the riffraff away from their lounges and luxury properties ?
great
i'm a platinum every year based on 50+ paid and award nights. i do not want my status to be at the same level as someone who stayed 20 nights and happen to live in usa and churn cc to get 15-30 nights. those nights are not equivalent to my nights i actually spend in nice spg and mediocre chintzy marriotts. and especially as a foreigner where these cc offers are not available to me. my points are becoming less valuable and it's because of more points in the market which depreciates the points value which is why a place like the courtyard tokyo station is now a gd category SIX. but they have an amazing happy hour and breakfast and i imagine they want to keep it that way. the cc offers for marriott were too generous and if you want platinum maybe you should earn it.
Feb 7, 2020, 4:18 am
#83
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 171
I would argue that Marriott needs Milestone rewards like Hyatt. The issue with rollover is people like me, I would have rolled over 100+ nights and therefore have less incentive to keep all stays with Marriott.
There should be an incentive to stay 90 nights, 120, 150 etc.
There should be an incentive to stay 90 nights, 120, 150 etc.
I have the Marriott CC and use it for all my hotel bookings. I get 35k points a year for the $95 annual fee. I don’t carry a balance so I’m sure Marriott May cull me from the card at some point
Feb 7, 2020, 6:01 am
#84
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,245
They also get a small fortune in terms of transaction fees.
Feb 7, 2020, 6:28 am
#85
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NYC (LGA, JFK), CT
Programs: Delta Platinum, American Gold, JetBlue Mosaic 4, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Explorist, Hilton Diamond,
Posts: 4,894
Unless I'm mistaken, the Marriott-SPG merger happened because the US government opposed a Chinese conglomerate snapping up SPG. I'm aware that Hyatt and SPG couldn't reach an agreement. I would have been happy with a Chinese owned SPG because it would have prevented Marriott from being too big.
Feb 7, 2020, 6:54 am
#86
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SYD
Programs: UA*1K, BA Gold, SPG Platinum
Posts: 245
So who did Bonvoy hire after the merger with SPG to counsel them about the elimination of the low spending gamers ? Someone from SPG? A Flyertalker ? Or the Points Guy ?
It must've been someone pretty knowledgeable about the tricks like the cheap meetings for status, speculative points advance, ...
It must've been someone pretty knowledgeable about the tricks like the cheap meetings for status, speculative points advance, ...
But every new policy & procedure costs time and money, so they are unlikely to "weed out" the gamers unless it is net-positive to their bottom line.
And don't forget that some "gamers" are big advocates for the Marriott brand, boasting about their achievements to family, friends, blog visitors ...
Feb 7, 2020, 7:02 am
#87
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Everywhere
Programs: AA EXP - 3.7MM, Bonv LIFETIME Titan, HH Dmd, Hyatt Glob., Priority Clb Dmd, Ntnl Exec El., Sixt PLT
Posts: 1,680
From summer 2018 Marriott stock went down and then recovered with not much gain - all this at the record hotel occupancy.
Over the same period Hilton was a much better investment.
Over the same period Hilton was a much better investment.
Feb 7, 2020, 7:53 am
#88
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Seat 1L these days :)
Programs: AF Platinum/AY LUMO/SK EBG/baEC S/HYATT Globalist/MR LTP/A3 *G/HH Dia/IHG plat
Posts: 7,957
they should level the playing field, as of now not every market offers a Creditcard method of gaining extra nights 👎 good for some sucks for others.
non issue for me I will settle with LT Gold and move on. all these changes made me look elswhere
non issue for me I will settle with LT Gold and move on. all these changes made me look elswhere
Feb 7, 2020, 8:04 am
#89
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,245
When I was SPG Platinum, I felt like I belonged to something special — and coming to a hotel honestly felt like coming somewhere where I was genuinely welcomed and appreciated. With the size and scale of the new Marriott, and the cookie-cutter mentality applied to so many properties, I’m just a number now — as a Titanium.
Marriott is definitely more "corporate", although objectively I feel things have gotten better in terms of properties, choices etc.
Regardless, to the topic on hand, I do not expect a major change due to cutting down on people gaming the system. Within the FT bubble, it may seem like a large number do it but the rest of the world is unaffected.
Feb 7, 2020, 8:22 am
#90
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 116
other than your point about people who book a rate at a certain date at a certain category at a certain time before they change categories and then have their original agreed upon rate rescinded (is this actually a thing?), i say...
great
i'm a platinum every year based on 50+ paid and award nights. i do not want my status to be at the same level as someone who stayed 20 nights and happen to live in usa and churn cc to get 15-30 nights. those nights are not equivalent to my nights i actually spend in nice spg and mediocre chintzy marriotts. and especially as a foreigner where these cc offers are not available to me. my points are becoming less valuable and it's because of more points in the market which depreciates the points value which is why a place like the courtyard tokyo station is now a gd category SIX. but they have an amazing happy hour and breakfast and i imagine they want to keep it that way. the cc offers for marriott were too generous and if you want platinum maybe you should earn it.
great
i'm a platinum every year based on 50+ paid and award nights. i do not want my status to be at the same level as someone who stayed 20 nights and happen to live in usa and churn cc to get 15-30 nights. those nights are not equivalent to my nights i actually spend in nice spg and mediocre chintzy marriotts. and especially as a foreigner where these cc offers are not available to me. my points are becoming less valuable and it's because of more points in the market which depreciates the points value which is why a place like the courtyard tokyo station is now a gd category SIX. but they have an amazing happy hour and breakfast and i imagine they want to keep it that way. the cc offers for marriott were too generous and if you want platinum maybe you should earn it.