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-   -   Arne now outright lying: says Bonvoy preferred 8:1 over SPG/MR (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/marriott-marriott-bonvoy/1994704-arne-now-outright-lying-says-bonvoy-preferred-8-1-over-spg-mr.html)

UA-NYC Nov 8, 19 7:35 pm

Arne now outright lying: says Bonvoy preferred 8:1 over SPG/MR
 
"In a recent survey of Bonvoy members, respondents said that they preferred the new Marriott Bonvoy loyalty program over either Marriott Rewards or SPG by an eight to one margin" - have been zero reports anywhere of this type of survey

https://onemileatatime.com/survey-pe...rriott-bonvoy/

Some tip top leadership there

Have at it

margarita girl Nov 8, 19 7:53 pm

I haven't looked at the article yet, but what was the ratio of Marriott members vs SPG members before the merger? Of course the Marriott people would prefer Bonfire. Look at all the new benefits they're getting:
  • breakfast
  • late check out
  • SNAs
  • suite upgrades
  • double welcome bonus
  • luxury properties
  • no black out dates

What's not to like???

Newman Nov 8, 19 7:57 pm


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31717225)
"In a recent survey of Bonvoy members, respondents said that they preferred the new Marriott Bonvoy loyalty program over either Marriott Rewards or SPG by an eight to one margin" - have been zero reports anywhere of this type of survey

https://onemileatatime.com/survey-pe...rriott-bonvoy/

Some tip top leadership there

Have at it

And you know this is a lie.... because?
It is quite common for corporations to contract with polling companies to conduct all types of polls including favorability polls. The results are often used internally and not made public.
The fact that the survey results turned out differently than the author of the article or the OP believes doesn't mean a legitimate survey wasn't conducted.
The title of this thread is outrageous and borderline slanderous. There is ZERO evidence that Mr. Sorenson lied, and to state so is disgraceful.

Newman

UA-NYC Nov 8, 19 7:59 pm

As 1) a professional in the market research industry who fully understands surveying and 2) one who is painfully aware of the issues over the past year and 3) given that there have been zero reports of any survey of this type - I am fully 100% confident this clown CEO is fully pulling this out of his behind

UA-NYC Nov 8, 19 8:09 pm

Furthermore - while I could have accepted (as the post notes) something in the 2:1 range about preference - I'm confident in saying there is a 0.0% chance that an 8:1 result would emerge from a true representative sample of the combined user base, via best practices in questioning.

I bet I could pick apart the sampling and methodology in about 2 seconds - it probably looked something like this (from the infamous COdbaUA survey):

https://frequentlyflying.boardingare...ee-survey.jpeg

Newman Nov 8, 19 8:10 pm


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31717296)
As 1) a professional in the market research industry who fully understands surveying and 2) one who is painfully aware of the issues over the past year and 3) given that there have been zero reports of any survey of this type - I am fully 100% confident this clown CEO is fully pulling this out of his behind

Perhaps the overwhelming majority of the 100 million + Bonvoy members are willing to accept "the issues over the past year", btw, which have improved dramatically, in exchange for all of the benefits annotated in Post #2 .
Also, the fact that you are not aware of any survey of this type doesn't mean it wasn't conducted or the results were not exactly as described. That is how internal polling works in the corporate world. Results are used for product and service research, development, and improvement.

Newman

UA-NYC Nov 8, 19 8:16 pm

Lol - "internal polling" (aka not exactly polling your, you know, customers) is basically the only way to artificially get to an 8:1 outcome

UA-NYC Nov 8, 19 8:24 pm

And - while legacy Marriott members now have new benefits well beyond they could have ever dreamed of - they also 1) have seen 50-100% point inflation, 2) IT/CS issues not apparently observed in the legacy program, 3) Plats now getting layered by Ambassadors, 4) downgrade in UA matching benefits for 50 night stayers, etc.

A mixed bad, maybe a net positive overall - a claimed 8:1 preference ratio, however, is beyond the pale

Nuhusky Nov 8, 19 8:56 pm

I for one do prefer the new bonvoy program over the old Marriott program

hands down far superior imo. I get better value, I get better treatment and the larger hotel footprint is unbeatable

Bravada04 Nov 8, 19 8:59 pm


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31717353)
And - while legacy Marriott members now have new benefits well beyond they could have ever dreamed of - they also 1) have seen 50-100% point inflation, 2) IT/CS issues not apparently observed in the legacy program, 3) Plats now getting layered by Ambassadors, 4) downgrade in UA matching benefits for 50 night stayers, etc.

A mixed bad, maybe a net positive overall - a claimed 8:1 preference ratio, however, is beyond the pale

New Benefits............Great!!! These are advertised benefits but who is actually getting these on a regular basis? I can tell you, I sure am not. It's a Bonvoyed Scam.

Collierkr Nov 8, 19 9:03 pm

Uh where are the moderators to combine multiple consecutive posts?. This is like talking to yourself! Anyone?

UA-NYC Nov 8, 19 9:05 pm

For anyone wondering - the ratio of members pre-merger was 2.5:1, with minimal overlap (expected at 16%, ended up being 11%)

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/tra...istion-n464866

mahasamatman Nov 8, 19 9:19 pm


Originally Posted by margarita girl (Post 31717278)
Of course the Marriott people would prefer Bonfire. Look at all the new benefits they're getting:
  • breakfast

You have that backwards. Marriott members got breakfast before the merger, SPG member did not (except for those rare Starwood properties with lounges).

margarita girl Nov 8, 19 9:23 pm


Originally Posted by mahasamatman (Post 31717463)
You have that backwards. Marriott members got breakfast before the merger, SPG member did not (except for those rare Starwood properties with lounges).

Wow, you’ve been getting ripped off. SPG instituted the breakfast benefit circa 2012!

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/star...ed-2012-a.html

CCIE_Flyer Nov 8, 19 9:55 pm

I'm just sure I've seen polls on FT before, no? Anyone able to insert one into this or another thread where we see how FTers feel how they would've voted in this hypothetical poll?

Granted, FTers aren't necessarily representative of the genpop, but we're more likely to make regular use of the program (and have thus had direct experiences with such scams as the "standard room" ripoff). And we've only got just a handful of shills actively participating in the forum, so I would guess that any results we generate here might be something worthy of picking up in the blogosphere and perhaps even mainstream news outlets.

Just sayin.

SKRan Nov 8, 19 10:14 pm


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31717353)
And - while legacy Marriott members now have new benefits well beyond they could have ever dreamed of - they also 1) have seen 50-100% point inflation, 2) IT/CS issues not apparently observed in the legacy program, 3) Plats now getting layered by Ambassadors, 4) downgrade in UA matching benefits for 50 night stayers, etc.

A mixed bad, maybe a net positive overall - a claimed 8:1 preference ratio, however, is beyond the pale

spg inflated by 3 on merger. then 50%-100%.

CO-PLAT Nov 8, 19 10:16 pm

Arne - You are full of IT

SKRan Nov 8, 19 10:16 pm

I have not experienced much common problems that year and I have received good and consistent ambassador treatment at legacy Marriott properties. My only complaint is the welcome points has shrinked by 30%.

kaizen7 Nov 8, 19 10:18 pm

Maybe the poll question was :
Which one you prefer :
Bonvoy
or
Your previous program

Then send this to ex Marriott Rewards members

MSPeconomist Nov 8, 19 10:34 pm

8:1 could mean that the sample size was 9 responses.

Antarius Nov 8, 19 10:52 pm


Originally Posted by CCIE_Flyer (Post 31717546)
I'm just sure I've seen polls on FT before, no? Anyone able to insert one into this or another thread where we see how FTers feel how they would've voted in this hypothetical poll?

Granted, FTers aren't necessarily representative of the genpop, but we're more likely to make regular use of the program (and have thus had direct experiences with such scams as the "standard room" ripoff). And we've only got just a handful of shills actively participating in the forum, so I would guess that any results we generate here might be something worthy of picking up in the blogosphere and perhaps even mainstream news outlets.

Just sayin.

FTers would vote every program and property as a 1 star out of 5. It rotates around. There are tons and tons of frequent travelers who are perfectly happy; travel and status is a means to an end.

I agree that Marriott has a ways to go in terms of consistency and standardization, but I will leave 2 points
1. I was one of those pre-merger SPG people who moved to Marriott due to the ...... footprint of SPG
2. SPG had Sheraton among other brands. Which in the US tended to be an inconsistent dumpster fire.

Sure, with SPG the highs may have been higher, but the lows were pretty low - meaning you try to find a hotel and there isn't one, so you end up at a Hilton, Marriott or whatever status/benefit free. Its the same discussion about Hyatt - the highs are high, but good luck finding one.

So for the pre-merger Marriott members, they got a lot. For the pre-merger spg members, they lost some perks, but got a real hotel chain network. Not surprising that non-FTers are happy all around.

supatight80 Nov 8, 19 10:53 pm

Hmm..Something doesnt add up. Legacy SPG folks were indeed "rabid" and fiercely loyal towards their loyalty program. it is not just coming from FT. Numerous blogs talked about it, business newspapers talked about it, even Arne admitted it several times.

But who amongst us are still fiercely loyal now? post after post after post, most people nowadays are voting with their wallets. They still stay at Marriott but theyre also staying somewhere else.

Maybe the non-status and low tier status folks in both SPG and Marriott prefer the new program 8:1. i mean much larger footprint, tons of choices. But the higher tier status folks from legacy SPG?? I dont think so...

Anyways my biggest disappointment when Bonvoy is MR's corporate culture. Prior to SPG being sold back in 2016 i believe, SPG corporate had our back. We WERE their clients. Marriott on the other hand, their clients are not us but the property owners. Hence all these "benefits" dont have any teeth if the properties wont commit. If properties wont commit, youre SOL or your on your own fighting for these benefits. I remember the good ol days in SPG when even calling the Platinum line to complain about something, the rep puts you on hold and they call the property to give them some scolding and forcing them to give you the benefits you deserved.

But im taking this as a blessing in disguise. Not being 100% loyal = saving money by staying at cheaper and nicer properties if it is a better alternative. Not like before, where by hook or by crook id be staying at an SPG property even though it was more expensive and/or the location wasnt ideal

CCIE_Flyer Nov 8, 19 11:20 pm


Originally Posted by Antarius
Not surprising that non-FTers are happy all around.

A thoughtful post on your part all around - but one of my more (hopefully) salient points was meant to be that a lot of folks may not yet have enough experience with the new program to render a good judgement. For example, they may not (yet) have been subjected to the "standard room" scam when actually going to cash in hard-earned points. Folks around these parts are just more generally knowledgeable/experienced, and I'd be interested to see the poll results (and not everyone rates everything 1/5 - many go out of their way to say what's good, which properties treat them well, and so forth).


Originally Posted by supatight80 (Post 31717673)
But im taking this as a blessing in disguise. Not being 100% loyal = saving money by staying at cheaper and nicer properties if it is a better alternative. Not like before, where by hook or by crook id be staying at an SPG property even though it was more expensive and/or the location wasnt ideal

There is this effect, most definitely, yes - a la UA in my case, certainly. The extent I no longer go to in order to fly that airline is difficult to estimate - but it's most certainly not in their favor post-merger!

kaizen7 Nov 9, 19 12:59 am

I'm from SPG side and I do find Bonvoy was somewhat devaluation compare to SPG.
Biggest issue would be what Supatight80 said .... Marriott corporate culture is more siding with property owners.

The increase is footprint might be very valuable for some, but I believe there are others who prefer SPG corporate culture than better footprint offered by Marriott.

And also SPG , by numbers, have easier path for elite membership.
Multiple room credit, stay count, etc.

As for me, while I do find Bonvoy is inferior than old SPG, but their offering currently still acceptable for my purpose hence I still continuing with Bonvoy.


However, if asked if I prefer SPG or Bonvoy, then I wouldn't hesitate to say I prefer SPG

Nitehawk Nov 9, 19 1:09 am

Going from SPG plat 50, to Bonvoy Platinum (ridiculous name, Bonvoy), is definitely a major devaluation.

Dr. HFH Nov 9, 19 2:11 am


Originally Posted by Nitehawk (Post 31717904)
... (ridiculous name, Bonvoy)....

They said that when Esso changed its name to Exxon, too. Let me make a few points, here:

1) FTers are not representative of the average Marriott customer, and comprise but a microscopic percentage of the traveling public.

2) IMO FTers are overwhelmingly negative and critical. I see far more posts about misses than hits.

3) As margarita girl pointed out upthread, there is an argument that things have improved for pre-merger Marriott folks.

4) I'm unprepared to call anyone a liar, especially in such a hugely public way as a popular forum, without more than unfounded suspicion. If anyone here has proof beyond what strikes them as reasonable/logical, please post it in the thread.

Originally Posted by margarita girl (Post 31717278)
Look at all the new benefits they're getting:
  • breakfast
  • late check out
  • SNAs
  • suite upgrades
  • double welcome bonus
  • luxury properties
  • no black out dates
What's not to like???


Jaunts Nov 9, 19 2:21 am

It is common for companies to create focus groups of customers, and require that participants agree to non disclosures of what is in the survey (no screen shots or posts online regarding content, etc.). That is probably why you haven't heard about it.

For whatever reason, several companies have asked me to participate in these things. I enjoy doing it. And I comply with the non disclosure.

HHonors OUTSIDER Nov 9, 19 2:30 am


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 31717639)
8:1 could mean that the sample size was 9 responses.

The sample size was actually 27. They left off the 18 that wrote in Hyatt.

Hipplewm Nov 9, 19 3:01 am

There are really only 5 of us in my group that all travel a lot (150+ days a year) and post merger 5/5 prefer the new Bonvoy over pre Marriott/SPG

YMMV

UKTraveller4Fun Nov 9, 19 3:31 am

Lies, damn lies and then stats!

Sure something was done in a controlled way to create this result so its no doubt real but completely meaningless other than a CEO to make out a disaster of a merger is great!

Loren Pechtel Nov 9, 19 4:58 am


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31717332)
Lol - "internal polling" (aka not exactly polling your, you know, customers) is basically the only way to artificially get to an 8:1 outcome

There are plenty of other ways to rig the results.

UA-NYC Nov 9, 19 6:18 am

Convening a biased focus group of 9 respondents, and 8 say the new program is better, would also give you the stated 8:1 result.

Of course, focus groups aren't "data", and presenting something similar would, yes, be a lie to customers and to investors.

Again - there is no way this 8:1 claim can be generated in a truthful, representative manner.

flying_geek Nov 9, 19 7:44 am

Numbers, when tortured, will always submit.

While I also doubt that they have done a statistically relevant survey that suggests people like Bonvoy better than SPG/MR by a wide margin - with the right questions asked you can have any result.

Do you think adding free breakfast is a valuable new benefit of Marriott Bonvoy?
Do you feel that adding "no black out dates" greatly increases flexibility for Marriott Bonvoy members?
Do you think customers appreciate all the new additional redemption options giving members a wider choice of properties for vacation redemptions?
Do you think Marriott Bonvoy is now more valuable than the old program?

or

Do you miss the days when customer service seemed to care about your issues?
Are you happy that the value of your points went down?
Does it bother you that award redemptions are now depending on peak/off peak season and your favorite hotels might no longer be available at reasonable redemption levels?
Do you think Marriott Bonvoy is now more valuable than the old program?

And then you publish the results of the last question. Of course with a little thinking one could come up with more effective leading questions... But this should illustrate the point.

kaizen7 Nov 9, 19 7:59 am

Agreed, most likely the survey questions was geared towards certain result such as comparing previous program (MR RCR to Bonvoy or SPG to Bonvoy)

And I believe MR/RCR members would find Bonvoy is better than the previous program.

hotelboy Nov 9, 19 8:48 am


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31717225)
"In a recent survey of Bonvoy members, respondents said that they preferred the new Marriott Bonvoy loyalty program over either Marriott Rewards or SPG by an eight to one margin" - have been zero reports anywhere of this type of survey

https://onemileatatime.com/survey-pe...rriott-bonvoy/

Some tip top leadership there

Have at it

Why is this so hard to believe? It is 100% inappropriate to accuse our Lord and Savior Arne of lying without any evidence. You may disagree with the poll's findings as you have stated but there is no evidence that the numbers are false. State that you disagree and move on to Hilton where the grass may not be any greener.

Dr. HFH Nov 9, 19 9:49 am


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31718368)
Again - there is no way this 8:1 claim can be generated in a truthful, representative manner.

And there is no way that your statement is anything more than conjecture unsupported by any facts that we've seen.

VickiSoCal Nov 9, 19 9:54 am

Do I prefer Bonvoy to Marriot Rewards the day before the merger became final? Yes. Do I prefer it to Marriott Rewards of 6 or 7 years ago, absolutely not.

UA-NYC Nov 9, 19 9:55 am

It defies anything approaching common sense to look at the combined customer base and objective issues and mix of upgrades and downgrades and believe that nearly 90% of the customers think it’s in a better place.

Comments on OMAAT and VFTW, while full of some savvy and some more novice travelers, would suggest 8:1 in the opposite direction.

But I guess Pravda had its loyal and fervent believers too...

Often1 Nov 9, 19 10:12 am


Originally Posted by UA-NYC (Post 31717225)
"In a recent survey of Bonvoy members, respondents said that they preferred the new Marriott Bonvoy loyalty program over either Marriott Rewards or SPG by an eight to one margin" - have been zero reports anywhere of this type of survey

https://onemileatatime.com/survey-pe...rriott-bonvoy/

Some tip top leadership there

Have at it

If you have evidence that this is a lie, you should report it to the SEC. It is a public company and a false and misleading statement of this magnitude by the CEO is actionable.

If you do not, then, you should know better than to use the language you used.

UA-NYC Nov 9, 19 10:56 am

I 100% stand by what I write.

(believe the kids would say these days “thanks Boomer”)


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