One year on: How's the merged program working out for you?
Aug 19, 2019, 9:54 pm
#46
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: Bonvoy :Ambassador , ALL :Diamond, Skywards :Silver, Krisflyer :Silver
Posts: 2,808
My suite upgrade is still way below bhrubins 
But I agree ambassador recognition were much better.
The loss of 3 nights credit certainly make ambassador requalification harder for me.
This year I have been lucky to get almost 30 nights from double nights promotion.
And for bottled water, never realise that changes before. All hotels I stays so far still provide me with generous amount of bottled water. At least 4 bottles or more and they still send more if I ask.
But I agree ambassador recognition were much better.
The loss of 3 nights credit certainly make ambassador requalification harder for me.
This year I have been lucky to get almost 30 nights from double nights promotion.
And for bottled water, never realise that changes before. All hotels I stays so far still provide me with generous amount of bottled water. At least 4 bottles or more and they still send more if I ask.
Aug 20, 2019, 1:02 am
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: IAH
Programs: DL DM, Hyatt Ist-iest, Stariott Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 12,789
So with Marriott, as a Ti, I earn 17.5 points per $, as Diamond with Hilton I earn 20 per $, not counting CC, bonuses or promotions. Using TPG's points guide of 0.6c/point for Hilton and 0.8c/point for Marriott, my $100 spend at Marriott is worth $14, and $12 at Hilton. Is that too simplistic? Am I missing something?
As for me I had a sizable enough Marriott stash and was going to wind up close enough to Platinum that I decided to push for that and use this year and next to burn down my pile of points in comfort. Currently at 51 nights and any additional ones will probably only be awards. With Plat in Bonvoy, and Diamond at Hilton I just pick and choose what is the better return on spend and what properties make sense.
Aug 20, 2019, 1:25 am
#49
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: Marriott Titanium, IHG Spire Elite, Hilton Gold, United Silver, BA Bronze
Posts: 322
Overall, it has been better for me.
Pros:
1. Incredible award redemptions at SPG aspirational properties, even at 85k a night these often are significantly cheaper than SPG prices before the merger. Peak pricing will degrade this, however.
2. Titanium has improved the frequency of my suite upgrades over what I had as a Platinum before the merger. I am very pleased with the rooms I have stayed in this year.
3. The double nights and points promotions I was targeted for have boosted my account considerably.
4. SNAs have worked flawlessly for me (applied 10 this year).
5. Marriott have retained their reward chart, when Hilton have abolished theirs.
Cons:
1. Ongoing IT issues require plenty of patience, to put it mildly.
2. Front line staff training remains inconsistent. I understand the franchise model, but imagine going to McDonalds to order a Big Mac and getting a different sandwich at each different location. This is how inconsistent it sometimes feels dealing with Marriott associates.
3. Peak pricing and hotel category changes have significantly devalued the credit card free night.
Pros:
1. Incredible award redemptions at SPG aspirational properties, even at 85k a night these often are significantly cheaper than SPG prices before the merger. Peak pricing will degrade this, however.
2. Titanium has improved the frequency of my suite upgrades over what I had as a Platinum before the merger. I am very pleased with the rooms I have stayed in this year.
3. The double nights and points promotions I was targeted for have boosted my account considerably.
4. SNAs have worked flawlessly for me (applied 10 this year).
5. Marriott have retained their reward chart, when Hilton have abolished theirs.
Cons:
1. Ongoing IT issues require plenty of patience, to put it mildly.
2. Front line staff training remains inconsistent. I understand the franchise model, but imagine going to McDonalds to order a Big Mac and getting a different sandwich at each different location. This is how inconsistent it sometimes feels dealing with Marriott associates.
3. Peak pricing and hotel category changes have significantly devalued the credit card free night.
Aug 20, 2019, 5:16 am
#50
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: DCA
Posts: 7,769
So with Marriott, as a Ti, I earn 17.5 points per $, as Diamond with Hilton I earn 20 per $, not counting CC, bonuses or promotions. Using TPG's points guide of 0.6c/point for Hilton and 0.8c/point for Marriott, my $100 spend at Marriott is worth $14, and $12 at Hilton. Is that too simplistic? Am I missing something?
1) Discounting promotions is ridiculous - Hilton's promo literally is double earnings right now, plus milestone bonuses. Hilton runs similar promos almost every quarter, so you can pretty much bake them in. That's a bit more than noise or rounding error.
2) No one cares about TPG and his "valuations". What matters is your travel patterns and where you earn and burn. One-size-fits all recommendations are great for cookie-cutter blogs to pump credit cards, but not for individual travelers.
This is another interesting point that I was going to raise earlier. If you look at the closest head-to-head comparison of cards, which is the AMEX Surpass versus the Bonvoy Boundless, both $95/year cards with similar ancillary benefits, you see that the Hilton card gives 12x whereas the Bonvoy card gives 6x. This shows a 2x earnings multiple on Honors products, which you have to again take back and compare against the cost of redemptions - if your Hilton redemptions are less than 2x your Marriott redemptions, then the market isn't efficient and you're benefiting as a consumer.
Aug 20, 2019, 5:26 am
#51
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: BOS
Programs: Marriott LTG, HHonors Diamond, Nat'l Exec
Posts: 3,581
I actually had a great deal of optimism when I saw the initial details of the merged program. But needless to say, that has been tempered by both experience and the clueless attitude of Marriott corporate throughout this merger process.
The biggest pro for me is increased footprint -- there are many occasions where there's now a Courtyard or Springhill or similar available in a much more convenient location than SPG properties previously. That makes it much easier for me to maintain status -- especially as someone who often qualified by stays in the past. I also have found I quite like the Renaissance brand.
The cons -- losing qualification by stays is high on the list, and not something others here have mentioned. In general, though, I can't say any aspect of my customer experience has improved compared to SPG, and many things I enjoyed have declined.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I believe the absurdly complicated rules for breakfast and other benefits create a culture of exceptions and evasion among the properties. I think a lot could be solved by moving to simple, straightforward policies -- say, hot breakfast for two guests at every property, lounge access wherever there is a lounge. Hyatt and Hilton manage fine with similar, straightforward policies.
I can't establish causation, but I feel like that is part of the reason why my experience at limited service Bonvoy properties has been so underwhelming. I have to travel a lot of places where there's only a Courtyard or Fairfield or similar -- and frankly, on a business trip, I often prefer a concept like Springhill with more space in the room to a lower-end, full-service property. (Half elite nights at Element have really hurt, here.) But what I find is that there's almost zero elite recognition outside of a script. In the past, I've been top tier elite with Hyatt, Hilton, IHG (somehow), and SPG -- and in each case, front desk staff at these lower end properties consistently looked for better rooms, or delivered other small benefits above and beyond the call of duty. By contrast, on at least half of my Courtyard stays, the FD staff doesn't even pre-book me into a room that matches my online profile. Is it really so much effort to make sure that a Titanium with "high floor" in their profile doesn't get a room facing the parking lot? I could argue, but it's just not worth it; the point of status should be to make my travel easier.
Likewise, there have been a lot of small point devaluations, at least compared with SPG. The opportunity to earn on-property bonus points is less -- the welcome gift is 2/3 of what it was under SPG, and the "make a green choice" program is 1/3. The devaluation of the SPG AmEx has ruined one of my favorite everyday spend cards. A lot of people are focused on redemption rates, but these add up too.
In the end, then, it's a property I'm not very enthusiastic about. Is there an overwhelmingly better choice for me? No, not right now. I returned to SPG from Hyatt after many happy years because it got too hard to find places to stay 60 nights a year, and the program's not worthwhile for anything under top tier elite. If they ever expand their footprint meaningfully, I'll probably end back there.
My current plan is to stick it out for LTP with Marriott (should hit 400 nights this year), and then start being somewhat agnostic; I do genuinely prefer a lot of lower-end Hilton properties, and I can easily get Diamond through credit cards, so I'll likely end up splitting my stays between Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, and AirBNB, and not worrying about loyalty anymore.
The biggest pro for me is increased footprint -- there are many occasions where there's now a Courtyard or Springhill or similar available in a much more convenient location than SPG properties previously. That makes it much easier for me to maintain status -- especially as someone who often qualified by stays in the past. I also have found I quite like the Renaissance brand.
The cons -- losing qualification by stays is high on the list, and not something others here have mentioned. In general, though, I can't say any aspect of my customer experience has improved compared to SPG, and many things I enjoyed have declined.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I believe the absurdly complicated rules for breakfast and other benefits create a culture of exceptions and evasion among the properties. I think a lot could be solved by moving to simple, straightforward policies -- say, hot breakfast for two guests at every property, lounge access wherever there is a lounge. Hyatt and Hilton manage fine with similar, straightforward policies.
I can't establish causation, but I feel like that is part of the reason why my experience at limited service Bonvoy properties has been so underwhelming. I have to travel a lot of places where there's only a Courtyard or Fairfield or similar -- and frankly, on a business trip, I often prefer a concept like Springhill with more space in the room to a lower-end, full-service property. (Half elite nights at Element have really hurt, here.) But what I find is that there's almost zero elite recognition outside of a script. In the past, I've been top tier elite with Hyatt, Hilton, IHG (somehow), and SPG -- and in each case, front desk staff at these lower end properties consistently looked for better rooms, or delivered other small benefits above and beyond the call of duty. By contrast, on at least half of my Courtyard stays, the FD staff doesn't even pre-book me into a room that matches my online profile. Is it really so much effort to make sure that a Titanium with "high floor" in their profile doesn't get a room facing the parking lot? I could argue, but it's just not worth it; the point of status should be to make my travel easier.
Likewise, there have been a lot of small point devaluations, at least compared with SPG. The opportunity to earn on-property bonus points is less -- the welcome gift is 2/3 of what it was under SPG, and the "make a green choice" program is 1/3. The devaluation of the SPG AmEx has ruined one of my favorite everyday spend cards. A lot of people are focused on redemption rates, but these add up too.
In the end, then, it's a property I'm not very enthusiastic about. Is there an overwhelmingly better choice for me? No, not right now. I returned to SPG from Hyatt after many happy years because it got too hard to find places to stay 60 nights a year, and the program's not worthwhile for anything under top tier elite. If they ever expand their footprint meaningfully, I'll probably end back there.
My current plan is to stick it out for LTP with Marriott (should hit 400 nights this year), and then start being somewhat agnostic; I do genuinely prefer a lot of lower-end Hilton properties, and I can easily get Diamond through credit cards, so I'll likely end up splitting my stays between Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, and AirBNB, and not worrying about loyalty anymore.
Aug 20, 2019, 6:17 am
#52
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Pittsburgh
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 226
I was lifetime Platinum and Ambassador level at SPG before the programs combined. The bigger footprint makes it much easier to stay within the program.
I kept my really wonderful Ambassador. I have had occasional minor service issues but a quick email or phone call resolved things quickly. My upgrade is high even though I generally don’t care because the vast majority of my travel is for business.
The clear delineation between status tiers is a positive. Overall I am happy with the program. The only thing that I miss is stay credit for multiple rooms but losing this benefit is minor. I will easily Renew Ambassador status without this benefit.
I kept my really wonderful Ambassador. I have had occasional minor service issues but a quick email or phone call resolved things quickly. My upgrade is high even though I generally don’t care because the vast majority of my travel is for business.
The clear delineation between status tiers is a positive. Overall I am happy with the program. The only thing that I miss is stay credit for multiple rooms but losing this benefit is minor. I will easily Renew Ambassador status without this benefit.
Aug 20, 2019, 6:29 am
#53
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: DAY
Programs: Rapid Rewards, Skymiles, Hilton HHonors, SPG/Marriott Rewards
Posts: 4,944
This is another interesting point that I was going to raise earlier. If you look at the closest head-to-head comparison of cards, which is the AMEX Surpass versus the Bonvoy Boundless, both $95/year cards with similar ancillary benefits, you see that the Hilton card gives 12x whereas the Bonvoy card gives 6x. This shows a 2x earnings multiple on Honors products, which you have to again take back and compare against the cost of redemptions - if your Hilton redemptions are less than 2x your Marriott redemptions, then the market isn't efficient and you're benefiting as a consumer.
Aug 20, 2019, 7:02 am
#54
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NYC (LGA, JFK), CT
Programs: Delta Platinum, American Gold, JetBlue Mosaic 4, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Explorist, Hilton Diamond,
Posts: 4,894
This is another interesting point that I was going to raise earlier. If you look at the closest head-to-head comparison of cards, which is the AMEX Surpass versus the Bonvoy Boundless, both $95/year cards with similar ancillary benefits, you see that the Hilton card gives 12x whereas the Bonvoy card gives 6x. This shows a 2x earnings multiple on Honors products, which you have to again take back and compare against the cost of redemptions - if your Hilton redemptions are less than 2x your Marriott redemptions, then the market isn't efficient and you're benefiting as a consumer.
2) Even with that said, Hilton earning is more generous across both the cards and points earned via stays, if only simply because you can become a Diamond member (and get Diamond earning) solely by applying for a credit card (you don't even have to pay for a Hilton stay with a personal card to benefit from the higher earnings). In addition, promotions are more generous.
3) You have to balance this out with availability and variety of redemption options. Look at Barcelona for example - I checked a dummy weekend in October, Hilton has really two good options (Alexandra and Hilton Barcelona), and neither are available to redeem at the standard level (Alexandra has a 94,000 premium rewards room available). Marriott has availability at Le Meridien at 50,000 points, Edition at 60,000 points, Cotton House at 60,000 points, Renaissance at 50,000 points, and W at 60,000 points (Hotel Arts isn't available). Marriott will usually have more upper tier redemptions available in any given location. So if redeeming points is your primary concern, you may still be better off earning Marriott points.
Aug 20, 2019, 7:47 am
#55
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: DCA
Posts: 7,769
You have to balance this out with availability and variety of redemption options. Look at Barcelona for example - I checked a dummy weekend in October, Hilton has really two good options (Alexandra and Hilton Barcelona), and neither are available to redeem at the standard level (Alexandra has a 94,000 premium rewards room available). Marriott has availability at Le Meridien at 50,000 points, Edition at 60,000 points, Cotton House at 60,000 points, Renaissance at 50,000 points, and W at 60,000 points (Hotel Arts isn't available). Marriott will usually have more upper tier redemptions available in any given location. So if redeeming points is your primary concern, you may still be better off earning Marriott points.
Even taking only the 94K redemption for that *one specific* weekend you picked, your data still reinforces my point - the Hilton redemptions are 1.6-1.9X the number of points, but the earn rate at Hilton is often 2x, so...
Aug 20, 2019, 8:10 am
#57
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: MCI
Programs: AA Gold 1MM, AS MVP, UA Silver, WN A-List, Marriott LT Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 52,570
So with Marriott, as a Ti, I earn 17.5 points per $, as Diamond with Hilton I earn 20 per $, not counting CC, bonuses or promotions. Using TPG's points guide of 0.6c/point for Hilton and 0.8c/point for Marriott, my $100 spend at Marriott is worth $14, and $12 at Hilton. Is that too simplistic? Am I missing something?
(1) Since both companies (and Hyatt) have credit cards that pay you to carry them, I *do* factor in "correct" CC use at each brand. So my base numbers are 23.5 Marriott and 34 HH. In fact, my former math computed Hyatt's reward value as including 1 Starpoint per dollar spent because I didn't find their card as compelling. (Now I have the Hyatt card.)
(2) I do factor in bonuses, promotions, and welcome amenities where applicable. Depending on your stay pattern (short, inexpensive stays vs. longer expensive ones) one format may be better than the other for you - and these earnings will absolutely impact your base by a nontrivial amount. Over the course of the years, Marriott tends to do more stay-based promos and Hilton tends to do more points-multiplier promos. Marriott mixes in the occasional Free Night promo; Hilton hasn't done these in quite a few years. Starwood used to have some fantastic promos but when I've seen post-merger makes it clear that the Marriott people, not the Starwood people, are designing the promos.
(3) TPG's rates don't mean much to me. They're always a little conservative (IMHO) because they seem targeted to a vanilla user as opposed to someone likely to optimize either program. I used to value Marriott somewhat higher than TPG thanks to the Travel Packages. I still give HH a slight higher value than most as long as the 95,000 cap holds and I can redeem at the top Asian properties without paying resort fees, service fees, or other bogus fees on awards. I expect before long they'll be at a straight cash-equivalent program and it will become a fixed 0.5 cents or similar. (I think Flyertalkers can all agree that hoarding Hilton points is never a good idea.)
Played right, you can still achieve 25-30% of your total spend in reward value, considering total earnings across a year with promos and credit card postings. That's just using "normal" valuations of standard rates for standard rooms, not taking into account SNAs or any other large suite upgrade you get for being elite. (As a regular Titanium and credit-card Diamond, I do not expect and generally do not receive free upgrades.)
Aug 20, 2019, 8:11 am
#58
Moderator: Mileage Run, InterContinental Hotels
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,914
Yes, yes, that does happen ... just wrote a detailed trip report and it disappeared when the FT page refreshed ... puts our gripes about Bonvoy IT into perspective, doesn't it?
Aug 20, 2019, 8:13 am
#59
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: DCA
Posts: 7,769
Bingo - that's the number that matters. I've been preaching the gospel of return on dollars spent for years around here as as the metric to end them all, but everyone gets hung up on cents-per-whatever valuations that are really just an intermediate variable...
Aug 20, 2019, 8:31 am
#60
Moderator: Mileage Run, InterContinental Hotels
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,914
I hear ya, but honestly, BRG rates attainable (often 30-50% less than standard rates), coupled with benefits (free breakfast must be worth a few dollars at least, no?) make a difference to me, points aside. I just posted a trip report of Courtyard Berlin at 52EUR/nt after BRG -- that alone would be good value, even with no points kickback, wouldn't it?