Ambassador vs Titanium
Aug 19, 19, 1:09 pm
#76
Join Date: May 2002
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Thanks for laying it out! But I think you missed two of the biggest factors in getting upgrades:
(1) Occupancy. A sold out or very high occupancy hotel is much less likely to be able to upgrade one to a better room, let alone a suite. The hotel isn't going to upgrade an elite to even a better room category if there are other paying guests who actually booked those better room categories--which is all but certain when hotels are sold out or at near capacity..
(1) Occupancy. A sold out or very high occupancy hotel is much less likely to be able to upgrade one to a better room, let alone a suite. The hotel isn't going to upgrade an elite to even a better room category if there are other paying guests who actually booked those better room categories--which is all but certain when hotels are sold out or at near capacity..
But even with high occupancy, the hotel still has to determine which arriving guests will get which rooms. Consider a hypothetical hotel with 300 rooms where guests stay an average of 3 nights. On an average day, 100 rooms check out and 100 rooms check in. Some of those rooms will be much better than others. Of course, arriving guests who reserved higher-priced categories should be assigned to accommodations in those categories (or higher). For "run of the house" rooms, the hotel could assign rooms randomly — or the hotel can make a genuine effort.
I think most of us want the hotel to make an effort.
(2) Suite number and proportions. A hotel with few suites proportionally isn't going to be able to upgrade one to a suite as easily as one with more suites proportionally. It's both about the absolute number of suites and the proportion of suites. Booking hotels with more suites as per both tends to allow for better chances for suite upgrades.
I've been on FlyerTalk a long time. It's been interesting to me that some folks here claim "never" to get upgraded, while others claim "always" to get upgraded. I think this comes down to the definition of upgrade. Some folks only consider suites to be upgrades, while others are quite happy to get a desirable room on a high floor on the side of the hotel with the better view.
Aug 19, 19, 1:23 pm
#77
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But even with high occupancy, the hotel still has to determine which arriving guests will get which rooms. Consider a hypothetical hotel with 300 rooms where guests stay an average of 3 nights. On an average day, 100 rooms check out and 100 rooms check in. Some of those rooms will be much better than others. Of course, arriving guests who reserved in a higher-priced categories should be assigned to accommodations in those categories (or higher). For "run of the house" rooms, the hotel could assign rooms randomly — or the hotel can make a genuine effort.
I think most of us want the hotel to make an effort.
I think most of us want the hotel to make an effort.
When hotels are sold out or at very high occupancy, there are many customers who have paid for better room categories and suites, as well. So it isn't always possible to upgrade everyone, let alone most, even to a better room category. This simple fact is lost on too many because of entitlement and an assumption that elite status makes one more special than one really is in such scenarios.
When the hotel isn't sold out our or at high occupancy, it is much easier to give elites a better room category; when it is sold out or at high occupancy, only the very best guests (Ambassadors, returning guests, and maybe Titaniums) are likely to get shown so much attention. Pick your battles, people. Or book a better room.
Everyone wants to share a hypothetical, most of which are nothing more than examples of confirmation bias: let's discuss an example that works to reinforce the point I want to make while ignoring all of the much more common and realistic scenarios that don't make that convenient point. Oops.
I've been on FlyerTalk a long time. It's been interesting to me that some folks here claim "never" to get upgraded, while others claim "always" to get upgraded. I think this comes down to the definition of upgrade. Some folks only consider suites to be upgrades, while others are quite happy to get a desirable room on a high floor on the side of the hotel with the better view.
It wasn't tough for me to realize I wasn't as special as I thought I was as an Ambassador when I stayed at the StR Osaka and didn't get a suite upgrade--because the hotel was sold out and had 3 weddings going on. Go figure. There was no conspiracy. The hotel had paying guests for a major special occasion, so my spectacular elite status didn't quite look as special nor get the job done in that context. That's how it's supposed to be.
Aug 19, 19, 1:43 pm
#78
Join Date: Feb 2018
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And perhaps some already booked higher category rooms or even suite so chance to get upgrade pretty much diminished.
Somehow I see that the upgrade chance game sort of encourage members to book lowest category room.
For example St Regis Singapore where I currently stay.
On each floor they have 5 executive deluxe (cheapest), 8 grand deluxe, 2 lady astor room (its basically corner exec deluxe with twin bed), and 2 suites
They have 16 floor with these layout. 262 rooms 37 suites in all.
The top 3 floors are for presidential suite, premium suites and specialty suites.
It would be easy to upgrade elite to grand deluxe due to the number of rooms
Yet the chance to get upgrades further if you book grand deluxe room somewhat drop significantly.
Somehow I see that the upgrade chance game sort of encourage members to book lowest category room.
For example St Regis Singapore where I currently stay.
On each floor they have 5 executive deluxe (cheapest), 8 grand deluxe, 2 lady astor room (its basically corner exec deluxe with twin bed), and 2 suites
They have 16 floor with these layout. 262 rooms 37 suites in all.
The top 3 floors are for presidential suite, premium suites and specialty suites.
It would be easy to upgrade elite to grand deluxe due to the number of rooms
Yet the chance to get upgrades further if you book grand deluxe room somewhat drop significantly.
Aug 19, 19, 1:49 pm
#79
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Thanks for laying it out! But I think you missed two of the biggest factors in getting upgrades:
(1) Occupancy. A sold out or very high occupancy hotel is much less likely to be able to upgrade one to a better room, let alone a suite. The hotel isn't going to upgrade an elite to even a better room category if there are other paying guests who actually booked those better room categories--which is all but certain when hotels are sold out or at near capacity.
(2) Suite number and proportions. A hotel with few suites proportionally isn't going to be able to upgrade one to a suite as easily as one with more suites proportionally. It's both about the absolute number of suites and the proportion of suites. Booking hotels with more suites as per both tends to allow for better chances for suite upgrades.
Most people ignore these to their own peril.
(1) Occupancy. A sold out or very high occupancy hotel is much less likely to be able to upgrade one to a better room, let alone a suite. The hotel isn't going to upgrade an elite to even a better room category if there are other paying guests who actually booked those better room categories--which is all but certain when hotels are sold out or at near capacity.
(2) Suite number and proportions. A hotel with few suites proportionally isn't going to be able to upgrade one to a suite as easily as one with more suites proportionally. It's both about the absolute number of suites and the proportion of suites. Booking hotels with more suites as per both tends to allow for better chances for suite upgrades.
Most people ignore these to their own peril.
(2) You keep stressing suite numbers and the proportion of rooms that are suites, but as I've been saying, it's much more complicated than this. You're looking only at the (short run fixed) supply.
There's also the demand side: Some hotels (luxury properties in particular and luxury resorts, plus hotels in certain major buiness cities and hotels where the clientele is likely to be generally wealthy) will have more (in absolute numbers) and more importantly a higher proportion of (paid) suite reservations. If you want a suite in Paris and are willing to pay for it, you're more likely to pick the PdG than the Marriott Rive Gauche and moreover more (in terms of absolute numbers and fractions) people will want suites in Paris than in Marseille on average over the year. People reserving suites are more likely to go to Male for a vacation than Cancun or Alicante.
Demand and supply interact too: If one is building a new (luxury, let's say) hotel or renovating one, you're award of how many suites you predict can be sold at what prices (depending of course on the hotel's location, features, etc. as well as the description of the suite), so if people will be more willing to pay for suites at your hotel, your akek sure that your hotel has more suites, in terms of numbers and the proportion.
Perhaps the best chance to get a suite would be when the (actual or expected) demand for suites is low relative to the asupply of suites. Off season travel is one example, but others would be weekday versus weekend arrival, (lack of) special events (don't expect a suite upgrade during the Olympics), etc. A good circumstance would be the hotel that has had a last minute wedding cancellation (for example, so that actual demand for suites has suddenly dropped) or a hotel located in an area experiencing an unexpected disturbance or disaster (Tokyo in the months after the Fukushima earthquake nuclear power plant disaster or Hong Kong currently).
There's also the demand side: Some hotels (luxury properties in particular and luxury resorts, plus hotels in certain major buiness cities and hotels where the clientele is likely to be generally wealthy) will have more (in absolute numbers) and more importantly a higher proportion of (paid) suite reservations. If you want a suite in Paris and are willing to pay for it, you're more likely to pick the PdG than the Marriott Rive Gauche and moreover more (in terms of absolute numbers and fractions) people will want suites in Paris than in Marseille on average over the year. People reserving suites are more likely to go to Male for a vacation than Cancun or Alicante.
Demand and supply interact too: If one is building a new (luxury, let's say) hotel or renovating one, you're award of how many suites you predict can be sold at what prices (depending of course on the hotel's location, features, etc. as well as the description of the suite), so if people will be more willing to pay for suites at your hotel, your akek sure that your hotel has more suites, in terms of numbers and the proportion.
Perhaps the best chance to get a suite would be when the (actual or expected) demand for suites is low relative to the asupply of suites. Off season travel is one example, but others would be weekday versus weekend arrival, (lack of) special events (don't expect a suite upgrade during the Olympics), etc. A good circumstance would be the hotel that has had a last minute wedding cancellation (for example, so that actual demand for suites has suddenly dropped) or a hotel located in an area experiencing an unexpected disturbance or disaster (Tokyo in the months after the Fukushima earthquake nuclear power plant disaster or Hong Kong currently).
Aug 19, 19, 1:52 pm
#80
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(2) You keep stressing suite numbers and the proportion of rooms that are suites, but as I've been saying, it's much more complicated than this. You're looking only at the (short run fixed) supply.
There's also the demand side: Some hotels (luxury properties in particular and luxury resorts, plus hotels in certain major buiness cities and hotels where the clientele is likely to be generally wealthy) will have more (in absolute numbers) and more importantly a higher proportion of (paid) suite reservations. If you want a suite in Paris and are willing to pay for it, you're more likely to pick the PdG than the Marriott Rive Gauche and moreover more (in terms of absolute numbers and fractions) people will want suites in Paris than in Marseille on average over the year. People reserving suites are more likely to go to Male for a vacation than Cancun or Alicante.
Demand and supply interact too: If one is building a new (luxury, let's say) hotel or renovating one, you're award of how many suites you predict can be sold at what prices (depending of course on the hotel's location, features, etc. as well as the description of the suite), so if people will be more willing to pay for suites at your hotel, your akek sure that your hotel has more suites, in terms of numbers and the proportion.
Perhaps the best chance to get a suite would be when the (actual or expected) demand for suites is low relative to the asupply of suites. Off season travel is one example, but others would be weekday versus weekend arrival, (lack of) special events (don't expect a suite upgrade during the Olympics), etc. A good circumstance would be the hotel that has had a last minute wedding cancellation (for example, so that actual demand for suites has suddenly dropped) or a hotel located in an area experiencing an unexpected disturbance or disaster (Tokyo in the months after the Fukushima earthquake nuclear power plant disaster or Hong Kong currently).
There's also the demand side: Some hotels (luxury properties in particular and luxury resorts, plus hotels in certain major buiness cities and hotels where the clientele is likely to be generally wealthy) will have more (in absolute numbers) and more importantly a higher proportion of (paid) suite reservations. If you want a suite in Paris and are willing to pay for it, you're more likely to pick the PdG than the Marriott Rive Gauche and moreover more (in terms of absolute numbers and fractions) people will want suites in Paris than in Marseille on average over the year. People reserving suites are more likely to go to Male for a vacation than Cancun or Alicante.
Demand and supply interact too: If one is building a new (luxury, let's say) hotel or renovating one, you're award of how many suites you predict can be sold at what prices (depending of course on the hotel's location, features, etc. as well as the description of the suite), so if people will be more willing to pay for suites at your hotel, your akek sure that your hotel has more suites, in terms of numbers and the proportion.
Perhaps the best chance to get a suite would be when the (actual or expected) demand for suites is low relative to the asupply of suites. Off season travel is one example, but others would be weekday versus weekend arrival, (lack of) special events (don't expect a suite upgrade during the Olympics), etc. A good circumstance would be the hotel that has had a last minute wedding cancellation (for example, so that actual demand for suites has suddenly dropped) or a hotel located in an area experiencing an unexpected disturbance or disaster (Tokyo in the months after the Fukushima earthquake nuclear power plant disaster or Hong Kong currently).
There certainly are a myriad of factors involved. No argument with you!
And yet, I tend to almost always get upgraded and FAR more often with hotels that have higher numbers and proportions of suites (most often luxury brands) than others. Even with hotels being sold out, that still has held true for me. So I try to keep it simple.
You're more than welcome to think of the many other factors that can come into play...but I think that exercise is generally going to be less helpful as a cost/benefit.
Aug 19, 19, 1:58 pm
#81
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And perhaps some already booked higher category rooms or even suite so chance to get upgrade pretty much diminished.
Somehow I see that the upgrade chance game sort of encourage members to book lowest category room.
For example St Regis Singapore where I currently stay.
On each floor they have 5 executive deluxe (cheapest), 8 grand deluxe, 2 lady astor room (its basically corner exec deluxe with twin bed), and 2 suites
They have 16 floor with these layout. 262 rooms 37 suites in all.
The top 3 floors are for presidential suite, premium suites and specialty suites.
It would be easy to upgrade elite to grand deluxe due to the number of rooms
Yet the chance to get upgrades further if you book grand deluxe room somewhat drop significantly.
Somehow I see that the upgrade chance game sort of encourage members to book lowest category room.
For example St Regis Singapore where I currently stay.
On each floor they have 5 executive deluxe (cheapest), 8 grand deluxe, 2 lady astor room (its basically corner exec deluxe with twin bed), and 2 suites
They have 16 floor with these layout. 262 rooms 37 suites in all.
The top 3 floors are for presidential suite, premium suites and specialty suites.
It would be easy to upgrade elite to grand deluxe due to the number of rooms
Yet the chance to get upgrades further if you book grand deluxe room somewhat drop significantly.
StR Singapore has always been a special case for upgrades in that they've had multiple room categories with very little difference in price that are basically just on slightly different floors, with only the suites located on the lowest floors (maybe four or five such floors) being placed in the suite upgrade pool. Nevertheless, I've received higher category suites here (on higher floors and slightly larger, not the specialty suites on top) as a SPG Plat50, with and without SNAs and with SNAs succeeding and failing. I suspect that they overbook at least some of their room categories on a regular basis as the hotel always has seemed full when I've stayed here.
Aug 19, 19, 2:09 pm
#82
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Those rooms would be penthouse rooms
These rooms are exactly same size and layout with grand deluxe with only different are they on the lv 22 if i remember correctly. Together with their specialty suites which again have exact dimension and layout with their st regis / caroline astor suites
These rooms are exactly same size and layout with grand deluxe with only different are they on the lv 22 if i remember correctly. Together with their specialty suites which again have exact dimension and layout with their st regis / caroline astor suites
Aug 19, 19, 2:16 pm
#83
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Those rooms would be penthouse rooms
These rooms are exactly same size and layout with grand deluxe with only different are they on the lv 22 if i remember correctly. Together with their specialty suites which again have exact dimension and layout with their st regis / caroline astor suites
These rooms are exactly same size and layout with grand deluxe with only different are they on the lv 22 if i remember correctly. Together with their specialty suites which again have exact dimension and layout with their st regis / caroline astor suites
IIRC StR suites are in the upgrade pool (including for SNAs) but not Caroline Astor suites or vv. They're very similar but are treated very differently by this property's formal policy.
Aug 19, 19, 2:44 pm
#85
Join Date: May 2002
Programs: AAdvantage Platinum, United Silver, Marriott Titanium Elite
Posts: 2,239
Like college admissions, it's rarely so simple. Just because hotels want to make that effort doesn't mean they always can or always will for everyone. Not all elites are as elite as they want to pretend. Ambassadors and returning guests tend to get the best treatment because they should; Titaniums and then Plats get better treatment and on down the line depending on how much occupancy the hotel is at and how much concomitant flexibility it may or may not have.
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The point is that some hotels don't make an effort. When a Titanium Elite guest gets a room facing a dumpster enclosure wall, and that guest's no-status co-worker checking at the same time (who has a reservation at the same corporate rate) gets a corner executive room on high floor, the hotel is not making an effort.
When a front desk agent clearly has not received training on how to handle check-ins of members at various Marriott Bonvoy tiers, the hotel is not making an effort.
Most hotels make the effort. Some do not.
Entitlement is brutal. It's tough for some to realize that they're not as special as they thought they were when a hotel is sold out or at high occupancy. Or better yet, when they pick a hotel with 8 suites and then are surprised that they didn't get one of those. Sigh.
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I solve this problem by not using the word entitlement.
There is a big difference between a Titanium Elite guest unrealistically expecting always to get a suite and a Titanium Elite guest realistically expecting not to get the worst room in the hotel.
Last edited by Horace; Aug 19, 19 at 2:53 pm
Aug 19, 19, 2:53 pm
#86
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That's how it should be. The hotel should make an effort. Most guests know not to expect a top-floor suite (unless that what was reserved).
The point is that some hotels don't make an effort. When a Titanium Elite guest gets a room facing a dumpster enclosure wall, and that guest's no-status co-worker checking at the same time (who has a reservation at the same corporate rate) gets a corner executive room on high floor, the hotel is not making an effort.
When a front desk agent clearly has not received training on how to handle check-ins of members at various Marriott Bonvoy tiers, the hotel is not making an effort.
Most hotels make the effort. Some do not.
The point is that some hotels don't make an effort. When a Titanium Elite guest gets a room facing a dumpster enclosure wall, and that guest's no-status co-worker checking at the same time (who has a reservation at the same corporate rate) gets a corner executive room on high floor, the hotel is not making an effort.
When a front desk agent clearly has not received training on how to handle check-ins of members at various Marriott Bonvoy tiers, the hotel is not making an effort.
Most hotels make the effort. Some do not.
#misplacedcriticism
There is big difference between a Titanium Elite guest unrealistically expecting to always get a suite and a Titanium Elite guest realistically expecting not to get the worst room in the hotel.
Yours is an example of the very confirmation bias example to which I was referring.
Rarely is a Titanium given the worst room in the hotel. Rarely is a Titanium even given the worst room in a room category. The example is what we call a red herring: it happens, but it’s so rare as to be incredibly misleading.
The most recent example in this discussion was about an otherwise fine room with a bad view—when a hotel was sold out. All bets are off under such circumstances, and we are only entitled it the room category for which we paid. Believing otherwise is entitlement IMO.
Call me crazy, but I’m not crying in the slightest for the Titanium or even Ambassador who gets an otherwise perfectly fine room in a sold out hotel but wants to complain because the view is bad. Pick your battles. That’s entitlement to me.
Aug 19, 19, 2:56 pm
#87
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A "bad" view is one thing, but paying for a suite that only looks onto a big wall of metal due to (noisy) building mechanicals is somewhat worse than a bad view, especially when the check in person tries to tell you that you've been upgraded.
Aug 19, 19, 3:00 pm
#88
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That's entitlement.
In the example you are now proposing, paying for a suite and getting a bad view is still possible--and appropriate if the hotel is sold out. The issue there isn't that the hotel didn't treat anyone better but that the hotel has a suite category with such bad views in the first place.
Aug 19, 19, 10:49 pm
#89
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Yes!! What I was complaining about was literally getting the worst room on property when booking through Marriott as a Titanium. Booking via Priceline Name your own price could not have got me a worse room. They did not do a thing to even try to give me a better room in the category I reserved. I have previously stayed at the property before as a lower tier elite and had serviceable parking lot views in the same room category. So what Im complaining about is the relative value of Titanium vs PL NYOP. I guess thats entitlement!!!
Aug 19, 19, 11:32 pm
#90
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Yes!! What I was complaining about was literally getting the worst room on property when booking through Marriott as a Titanium. Booking via Priceline Name your own price could not have got me a worse room. They did not do a thing to even try to give me a better room in the category I reserved. I have previously stayed at the property before as a lower tier elite and had serviceable parking lot views in the same room category. So what Im complaining about is the relative value of Titanium vs PL NYOP. I guess thats entitlement!!!
But expecting that when the hotel is sold out is a very different story. Im honesty surprised this isnt more obvious. It just isnt as reasonable to expect the hotel to move you when every room is sold. It isnt as reasonable that there are somehow free rooms to use to placate you.
Your actual issue is more about questioning a bad hotel view not being appropriate to the category you booked. But thats not so obvious to anyone here. That may be true or not. But at the end of the day, you got the room category you booked and the room was perfectly fine and the hotel was sold out. I think you were being unreasonable.
