Time for me to move on - charged a cancellation fee after being told I wouldn't
Apr 14, 2019, 11:29 am
#46
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
I've scrolled down in the thread, but there's something that is bothering me about this whole thing. That's the language being used in the app, etc. "You may be charged a cancellation fee" is painfully vague and offers no reasonable sense of what the user "may" (or will) be charged (and there's clearly a wild range there). Why it isn't "You will be charged a cancellation fee of $X" (or "of your first night's stay") or something else clearly in line with whatever the property's cancellation policy is.
I'll agree that the time-of-cancellation rules are also vague (if they're going to say "check-in time" or something like that, why not just have the system input the property's check-in time, which is notably also on the website).
@ethernal: I do have one sincere question. When you called, why didn't you just have the agent carry out the cancellation? I have to suspect that if an agent tells you that you won't be charged a fee for cancelling and then carries out the cancellation (resulting in you being charged a fee that they said you wouldn't), that would make for a fairly open-and-shut case.
I'll agree that the time-of-cancellation rules are also vague (if they're going to say "check-in time" or something like that, why not just have the system input the property's check-in time, which is notably also on the website).
@ethernal: I do have one sincere question. When you called, why didn't you just have the agent carry out the cancellation? I have to suspect that if an agent tells you that you won't be charged a fee for cancelling and then carries out the cancellation (resulting in you being charged a fee that they said you wouldn't), that would make for a fairly open-and-shut case.
Apr 14, 2019, 11:29 am
#47
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
I agree with the OP. It is DEFINITELY time for him to move on.
He will soon find out that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the septic tank.
Nevertheless, the more elite members (especially Platinums) that leave the program, then there is that much greater opportunity for the 99.9% of us who are satisfied with Marriott Bonvoy to get upgrades. As a bonus, there will be a lot less drama here on this Board.
Best of luck....
Newman
He will soon find out that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the septic tank.
Nevertheless, the more elite members (especially Platinums) that leave the program, then there is that much greater opportunity for the 99.9% of us who are satisfied with Marriott Bonvoy to get upgrades. As a bonus, there will be a lot less drama here on this Board.
Best of luck....
Newman
That said, upgrades aren't that important to me. Sounds like I'm a much easier guest to please than you given that I just want a hotel chain that won't openly lie to me after providing ambiguous contract terms.
Apr 14, 2019, 11:34 am
#48
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
@ethernal: I do have one sincere question. When you called, why didn't you just have the agent carry out the cancellation? I have to suspect that if an agent tells you that you won't be charged a fee for cancelling and then carries out the cancellation (resulting in you being charged a fee that they said you wouldn't), that would make for a fairly open-and-shut case.
Because of this, I didn't even think to have them cancel the reservation themselves as that isn't something I normally think of using them for. To me, calling in for customer support is to ask a question (like I did) or to get something done I can't do via self-service.
I was perhaps too naive and trusting that I wouldn't be lied to (or at least given bad information - I know it almost certainly wasn't intentional deceit). It wasn't like I was asking for a fee waiver, I just wanted clarification on whether I'd be charged - I didn't think that was a big ask.
My issue is not that it happened. Mistakes are made. It's not a big deal. No company is able to deliver a perfect customer experience every time. I got annoyed when I saw the folio, but my immediate reaction was that I just needed to send in a quick call or drop a quick note. My frustration is that it is not getting fixed. This is brand and customer service 101: the single most impactful and defining moments for building brand loyalty and satisfaction is doing great service recovery. Marriott is failing here miserably.
Apr 14, 2019, 11:40 am
#49
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 905
I agree with the OP. It is DEFINITELY time for him to move on.
He will soon find out that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the septic tank.
Nevertheless, the more elite members (especially Platinums) that leave the program, then there is that much greater opportunity for the 99.9% of us who are satisfied with Marriott Bonvoy to get upgrades. As a bonus, there will be a lot less drama here on this Board.
Best of luck....
Newman
He will soon find out that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the septic tank.
Nevertheless, the more elite members (especially Platinums) that leave the program, then there is that much greater opportunity for the 99.9% of us who are satisfied with Marriott Bonvoy to get upgrades. As a bonus, there will be a lot less drama here on this Board.
Best of luck....
Newman
My view is that the complaining is healthy. There are some positive signs of improvement, but a long, long way to go.
I hope Marriott makes a success of this program but I sympathise with the OP
Apr 14, 2019, 11:59 am
#50
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,386
I agree with the OP. It is DEFINITELY time for him to move on.
He will soon find out that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the septic tank.
Nevertheless, the more elite members (especially Platinums) that leave the program, then there is that much greater opportunity for the 99.9% of us who are satisfied with Marriott Bonvoy to get upgrades. As a bonus, there will be a lot less drama here on this Board.
Best of luck....
Newman
He will soon find out that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the septic tank.
Nevertheless, the more elite members (especially Platinums) that leave the program, then there is that much greater opportunity for the 99.9% of us who are satisfied with Marriott Bonvoy to get upgrades. As a bonus, there will be a lot less drama here on this Board.
Best of luck....
Newman
Apr 14, 2019, 12:28 pm
#51
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,368
Honestly, this isn’t going to get any better with another chain, especially if a corporate travel desk or platform is involved. My Concur reservations across the various chains often show different cancelation deadlines in the Concur platform and emails versus the native hotel chain websites or apps. I know that it is probably just a matter of time until I get bitten.
Yes, it seems too easy a thing for Marriott to fix for it to be accidental. This has to be by design. Either to allow hotels to set arbitrary cancellation windows to trick guests (which is bad) or alternatively to discourage people from cancelling within their rightful window (I know I've been discouraged). This is not some mom and pa hotel chain, this is the world's largest hotel company. They can configure their systems to specify an exact cancellation date.
At least with Starwood (as others have noted), the terms of cancellation always had very specific times for when the deadline was. And it varied by hotel. Sometimes it was check-in time, sometimes it was noon, sometimes it was 6 PM. If Marriott cannot guarantee what the cancellation time the hotel set is, they should just move it to a day before to be safe. Living in this ambiguous la-la land is not okay.
At least with Starwood (as others have noted), the terms of cancellation always had very specific times for when the deadline was. And it varied by hotel. Sometimes it was check-in time, sometimes it was noon, sometimes it was 6 PM. If Marriott cannot guarantee what the cancellation time the hotel set is, they should just move it to a day before to be safe. Living in this ambiguous la-la land is not okay.
It used to be 6 pm under SPG.
Now, if it doesn't list a specific time, I assume it means by 11:59 pm the day listed hotel local time.
This has never done me wrong.
If the app gives me the warning that they MAY charge a fee, it means they definitely will. When that happens, I either call the hotel directly to cancel, or if later at night and I don't want to risk an error with the overnight crew, I call and have the phone line do it themselves.
They have a waiver code to put in there to assure no fee will be charged. That's the best bet if it's an hour or less to cancel deadline expiring
Now, if it doesn't list a specific time, I assume it means by 11:59 pm the day listed hotel local time.
This has never done me wrong.
If the app gives me the warning that they MAY charge a fee, it means they definitely will. When that happens, I either call the hotel directly to cancel, or if later at night and I don't want to risk an error with the overnight crew, I call and have the phone line do it themselves.
They have a waiver code to put in there to assure no fee will be charged. That's the best bet if it's an hour or less to cancel deadline expiring
That's interesting - I've had a slightly different experience... I've cancelled early in the day and received the same "You may be charged a cancellation fee" pop-up in the app and not been charged a cancellation fee.
The fact that they have to use a waiver fee to deal with their own ambiguity on cancellation times blows my mind.
The fact that they have to use a waiver fee to deal with their own ambiguity on cancellation times blows my mind.
I've scrolled down in the thread, but there's something that is bothering me about this whole thing. That's the language being used in the app, etc. "You may be charged a cancellation fee" is painfully vague and offers no reasonable sense of what the user "may" (or will) be charged (and there's clearly a wild range there). Why it isn't "You will be charged a cancellation fee of $X" (or "of your first night's stay") or something else clearly in line with whatever the property's cancellation policy is.
I'll agree that the time-of-cancellation rules are also vague (if they're going to say "check-in time" or something like that, why not just have the system input the property's check-in time, which is notably also on the website).
@ethernal: I do have one sincere question. When you called, why didn't you just have the agent carry out the cancellation? I have to suspect that if an agent tells you that you won't be charged a fee for cancelling and then carries out the cancellation (resulting in you being charged a fee that they said you wouldn't), that would make for a fairly open-and-shut case.
I'll agree that the time-of-cancellation rules are also vague (if they're going to say "check-in time" or something like that, why not just have the system input the property's check-in time, which is notably also on the website).
@ethernal: I do have one sincere question. When you called, why didn't you just have the agent carry out the cancellation? I have to suspect that if an agent tells you that you won't be charged a fee for cancelling and then carries out the cancellation (resulting in you being charged a fee that they said you wouldn't), that would make for a fairly open-and-shut case.
I'd prefer to cancel myself online rather than having an agent do it because I get an immediate confirmation email (and have the option of printing to document each stage of the process myself). Having an agent do it might not result in an immediate email and then now would need to call back and hope you reach someone before the deadline, rinse and repeat.
Apr 14, 2019, 1:03 pm
#52
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
@MSPeconomist: Fair point. It might be possible to just hold on the line pending the email (I've done this once or twice with airlines), but I realize that this might not be practical.
Of course, if the online reservation shows a more lenient or generous cancellation policy than the email, I have no idea which "should" govern. Per the Aspen case(s), is that an attempt to amend the contract (which in the case of a more lenient policy one would presumably accept, presuming no other amendments)? A mistake (at which point the question of what the mistake is comes into play)? And of course, the question of vendor negligence also comes to mind (since these issues seem to be rampant). If it is more stringent, that's a bigger mess (a vendor who "lightens up" on their terms after-the-fact is arguably being nice; one who tightens them up is arguably engaging in bait-and-switch).
And with the online/app language being vague and CYA-ish (despite the fact that tagging the cancellation policy to the reservation should be easy enough for the system to pull), I'd argue that it is more of a non-specific disclaimer than anything practical at this stage.
@ethernal: That line of reasoning actually makes perfect sense. I'm somewhat app-averse, I'll admit, but with hotels and so on playing more and more stupid games I find it much more comforting to have someone specific to blame for things going wrong.
Of course, if the online reservation shows a more lenient or generous cancellation policy than the email, I have no idea which "should" govern. Per the Aspen case(s), is that an attempt to amend the contract (which in the case of a more lenient policy one would presumably accept, presuming no other amendments)? A mistake (at which point the question of what the mistake is comes into play)? And of course, the question of vendor negligence also comes to mind (since these issues seem to be rampant). If it is more stringent, that's a bigger mess (a vendor who "lightens up" on their terms after-the-fact is arguably being nice; one who tightens them up is arguably engaging in bait-and-switch).
And with the online/app language being vague and CYA-ish (despite the fact that tagging the cancellation policy to the reservation should be easy enough for the system to pull), I'd argue that it is more of a non-specific disclaimer than anything practical at this stage.
@ethernal: That line of reasoning actually makes perfect sense. I'm somewhat app-averse, I'll admit, but with hotels and so on playing more and more stupid games I find it much more comforting to have someone specific to blame for things going wrong.
Apr 14, 2019, 1:11 pm
#53
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,368
Just to be sure, could there be any confusion about the OP's time zone at the time of the cancellation versus the local time zone of the hotel? Could the phone agent (IIRC only one was involved, but the OP asked that phone agent several times about the cancellation deadline) have been confused about the hotel's time zone? OTOH since cancel deadlines tend to be times like noon, 4 pm and 6 pm, a 5:00 deadline would be very usual so 5:45 pm is a time that shouldn't cause trouble since in the USA, the confusion is likely to be only one hour (such as whether DTW is eastern or midwestern time, or the case of states that include two time zones or that don't follow the usual daylight savings conventions).
Apr 14, 2019, 1:21 pm
#54
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
Just to be sure, could there be any confusion about the OP's time zone at the time of the cancellation versus the local time zone of the hotel? Could the phone agent (IIRC only one was involved, but the OP asked that phone agent several times about the cancellation deadline) have been confused about the hotel's time zone? OTOH since cancel deadlines tend to be times like noon, 4 pm and 6 pm, a 5:00 deadline would be very usual so 5:45 pm is a time that shouldn't cause trouble since in the USA, the confusion is likely to be only one hour (such as whether DTW is eastern or midwestern time, or the case of states that include two time zones or that don't follow the usual daylight savings conventions).
Apr 14, 2019, 1:26 pm
#55
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
Just to be sure, could there be any confusion about the OP's time zone at the time of the cancellation versus the local time zone of the hotel? Could the phone agent (IIRC only one was involved, but the OP asked that phone agent several times about the cancellation deadline) have been confused about the hotel's time zone? OTOH since cancel deadlines tend to be times like noon, 4 pm and 6 pm, a 5:00 deadline would be very usual so 5:45 pm is a time that shouldn't cause trouble since in the USA, the confusion is likely to be only one hour (such as whether DTW is eastern or midwestern time, or the case of states that include two time zones or that don't follow the usual daylight savings conventions).
Apr 14, 2019, 1:30 pm
#56
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: La Jolla, CA
Programs: Marriott Ambassador, Lifetime Titanium, Delta Plat, Hilton Diamond , Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 2,615
Just looked through several of my upcoming reservations and confirmed this
Relais & Chateau:
Cancellation policy: Free cancellation/modification until noon, 2 days prior to arrival.
Hilton:•Your reservation is guaranteed for late arrival.•Please contact us should you need to cancel your reservation. •Cancellations are required by 11:59 PM on Sep 15, 2019 local hotel time.
Sofitel (Accor):
Cancellation Policy:
No cancellation charge applies prior to 18:00 (local time), up to 3 days prior to arrival. Beyond that time, the first night will be charged.
Hyatt:CANCELLATION POLICY:TO AVOID 1 NIGHT FEE CANCEL 72HRS PRIOR TO CHECKIN TIME. The hotel check-in time is stated above, and the cancellation windows are based on the hotel's local time.
And then Marriott:Rate Details & Cancellation Policy•You may cancel your reservation for no charge until Tuesday, February 25, 2020 (1 day[s] before arrival).
Apr 14, 2019, 1:34 pm
#57
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: DCA
Posts: 7,769
If it's Concur versus the chain/property website, have you considered that your corporate rate, some general Concur rates, or your corporate contract with the hotel or chain could have very different cancellation deadlines than rates available to the general public? I see such differences all the time: special rate plans can be subject to different cancellation policies.
Broadly speaking, my general position is that I agree with the OP that these cancellation terms are too vague to be actionable...until the property wants to charge a fee of their choosing at a time they see fit!
Apr 14, 2019, 1:42 pm
#58
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,386
Just to be sure, could there be any confusion about the OP's time zone at the time of the cancellation versus the local time zone of the hotel? Could the phone agent (IIRC only one was involved, but the OP asked that phone agent several times about the cancellation deadline) have been confused about the hotel's time zone? OTOH since cancel deadlines tend to be times like noon, 4 pm and 6 pm, a 5:00 deadline would be very usual so 5:45 pm is a time that shouldn't cause trouble since in the USA, the confusion is likely to be only one hour (such as whether DTW is eastern or midwestern time, or the case of states that include two time zones or that don't follow the usual daylight savings conventions).
You may cancel your reservation for no charge until Tuesday, June 18, 2019 (2 day[s] before arrival).
So, considering this thread, I read that as saying I can cancel free of charge before 11:59 pm Monday, June 17, 2019.
Is that actually correct? Or is it free to cancel until the noted check in time (3.00 pm) on Tuesday?
Or anytime up until 11.59 pm on Tuesday?
How are they interpreting "until"? As "up to" or as "through"?
Once they define the actual cut off time, they can define the time zone constraint - which has to be the property's time zone. Wouldn't make sense otherwise. Up to the guest to calculate any time zone offsets. How would the hotel know where he is?
Apr 14, 2019, 1:58 pm
#59
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
I think a plain reading would be that you are able to cancel through 11:59PM on the day indicated (inclusive). At a bare minimum there's a case that the hotel has introduced deliberate ambiguity into the system and that if they wanted to say "11:59PM the day before" they should have said so.
Apr 14, 2019, 3:02 pm
#60
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,386
I think a plain reading would be that you are able to cancel through 11:59PM on the day indicated (inclusive). At a bare minimum there's a case that the hotel has introduced deliberate ambiguity into the system and that if they wanted to say "11:59PM the day before" they should have said so.
Now I'm not so sure. If I'm on road trip with a teenager and say, for example "You're legal to drive until Nebraska" doesn't that mean "up to"? Wouldn't the equivalent in time mean "up to Tuesday"?
More to the point, isn't it a certainty that if the hotel decided to interpret it that way, Marriott corporate is just going to shrug and take the position "yep, whatever they say" (as long as doesn't directly cost Marriott any money)?
