Interesting Bloomberg Report/Theory on Marriott Woes Driving HHonors Enrollments
#17
I am gathering US Marriott customer service just isn't there. In Asia the culture sort of adds that extra to customer service. I had absolutely crap service at a RC in Beijing and the GM refunded me the entire stay. Had a bad stay in Seoul, I had to go to corporate to get a hold of the GM, and the GM phoned me. I got a suite upgrade on my next stay as compensation. My buddy who is Ambassador probably gets 100-200k points a year in compensation for stuff the hotels do that they shouldn't. Asia is really good about trying to keep customers happy.
#18
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: CT/ Germany - Ich spreche deutsch
Programs: UA 1K, Bonvoy LTTE, HH Dia, HY Expl
Posts: 4,648
Wow! I would have thought that constantly complaining would get you put on flagged list of "never happy" customers. That amount of points is just ridiculous.
#19
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
#20
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
I am gathering US Marriott customer service just isn't there. In Asia the culture sort of adds that extra to customer service. I had absolutely crap service at a RC in Beijing and the GM refunded me the entire stay. Had a bad stay in Seoul, I had to go to corporate to get a hold of the GM, and the GM phoned me. I got a suite upgrade on my next stay as compensation. My buddy who is Ambassador probably gets 100-200k points a year in compensation for stuff the hotels do that they shouldn't. Asia is really good about trying to keep customers happy.
Within North America, Marriott general managers, both Marriott employees and third-party management company employees, are pretty good about throwing points at you for customer service recovery. Of course, I'm more interested in fixing the problem or issue so it doesn't happen again.
Sadly, I think most of the time they just throw points at you, hoping you'll go away and they won't have to deal with this again. I say that because I've returned to properties only to see the same issues reoccur.
Generally, Marriott-managed properties are better.
I've said this in other threads but I think part of the problem is who works at hotels.
Internationally, particularly in Europe or Southeast Asia, working at a big international branded hotel is prestigious. Many of the employees, even front desk clerks and junior manages, are young, well-educated, and working toward a career as a hotelier.
In the United States, that's less so. Yes, the general manager most likely studied hotel management but many of the other employees are just doing this as a "job" and not a career. They aren't nearly as polished. There's for sure a noticeable difference. You even notice it in restaurants, where front-of-the-house staff don't know how to properly serve food, pour wine, or set a table because being a waitress or bartender is just a "job." By contrast, you have say Paris where they have waiter schools and people will spend a career as a waiter.
It reminds me of a friend who owns a company. He said he would rather hire someone with no experience who he could then train and put on a path toward a career than someone who has held a lot of jobs and will bring bad habits and may leave as soon as they find something else.
Last edited by hockeyinsider; Feb 14, 2019 at 7:18 am
#21
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: ORD
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott Platinum/LT Platinum, Hilton Gold
Posts: 5,594
I don't think there's a direct correlation between new HHonors enrollments and people moving away from Marriott. There may be some marginal affect. To make a correlation, someone would need to measure stays or nights, not enrollments.
Like others, I've had a Hilton account for probably 15 years. If my Hilton nights went up and Marriott nights went down, that may signal some correlation. Likewise, if I were a new signup in HHonors but continued to stay at Marriott, what does that say about Marriott?
Increase in enrollments can be attributed to a whole lot of things, often promotions or credit cards. I'm guessing there is a marginal number of Marriott elites that have opened brand new Hilton accounts - certainly not 14M who never had an account there.
Like others, I've had a Hilton account for probably 15 years. If my Hilton nights went up and Marriott nights went down, that may signal some correlation. Likewise, if I were a new signup in HHonors but continued to stay at Marriott, what does that say about Marriott?
Increase in enrollments can be attributed to a whole lot of things, often promotions or credit cards. I'm guessing there is a marginal number of Marriott elites that have opened brand new Hilton accounts - certainly not 14M who never had an account there.
#22
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: DL DM, SPG Plat 100/LT Gold, Marriott Plat, National Executive Elite
Posts: 2,988
Having said that, 100K compensation points in a year wouldn't be hard for an Ambassador member.
I've gotten 10K twice already this year from 2 different hotels for skipping housekeeping in my room for a night despite me requesting it. The hotel offered this, not the other way around. And its good they did as skipping housekeeping - especially when actually requested via a call or via the app - is unacceptable.
#23
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Europe/SEA
Programs: TK E+, Bonvoy LT Plat, Hilton Diamond, IHG Platinum, Dusit Gold
Posts: 1,714
I have this year so far 22 hilton stays.. I had great stays with gold. Used to be diamond years ago but spg was better so focused on spg. I had great upgrades as Gold at conrad bali and Hilton KL and bkk...
bonvoy needs to throw some bones... I am 34 and just earned lt plat ( no meetings). I live in europe so 75 nights isn't easy without any cc nights as 80% of my nights are leisure... Without being able to get credits for up to three rooms i dont really have any incentive to book rooms for my friends at spg hotels but rather stay where's the best value for money.
Wife is Hilton gold as well so better we book 2 rooms at a Hilton hotel and get free bf for 2 rooms if we stay with friends....
bonvoy needs to throw some bones... I am 34 and just earned lt plat ( no meetings). I live in europe so 75 nights isn't easy without any cc nights as 80% of my nights are leisure... Without being able to get credits for up to three rooms i dont really have any incentive to book rooms for my friends at spg hotels but rather stay where's the best value for money.
Wife is Hilton gold as well so better we book 2 rooms at a Hilton hotel and get free bf for 2 rooms if we stay with friends....
#24
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: Bonvoy :Ambassador , ALL :Diamond, Skywards :Silver, Krisflyer :Silver
Posts: 2,778
Wont be surprised if the changes on Bonvoy drives members elsewhere.
For example, the loss of multiple night credits and stay based qualifications.
People who regularly book multiple rooms will definitely looking for other programs that credit those extra rooms.
Likewise, people who did plenty of short stays will looking for loyalty scheme that count stays like old SPG
Personally I book multiple rooms on some of my stays, so 2019 night count will definitely lower than 2018.
And if I cant reach any meaningful tier on Bonvoy, then I will end up moving my stays altogether to other chain.
For example, the loss of multiple night credits and stay based qualifications.
People who regularly book multiple rooms will definitely looking for other programs that credit those extra rooms.
Likewise, people who did plenty of short stays will looking for loyalty scheme that count stays like old SPG
Personally I book multiple rooms on some of my stays, so 2019 night count will definitely lower than 2018.
And if I cant reach any meaningful tier on Bonvoy, then I will end up moving my stays altogether to other chain.
#25
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,334
It should be noted that Marriott manages more (perhaps even most) of its full-service hotels internationally, unlike here in North America where most of the hotels, full-service and limited-service, are managed by third-party management companies.
Within North America, Marriott general managers, both Marriott employees and third-party management company employees, are pretty good about throwing points at you for customer service recovery. Of course, I'm more interested in fixing the problem or issue so it doesn't happen again.
Sadly, I think most of the time they just throw points at you, hoping you'll go away and they won't have to deal with this again. I say that because I've returned to properties only to see the same issues reoccur.
Generally, Marriott-managed properties are better.
I've said this in other threads but I think part of the problem is who works at hotels.
Internationally, particularly in Europe or Southeast Asia, working at a big international branded hotel is prestigious. Many of the employees, even front desk clerks and junior manages, are young, well-educated, and working toward a career as a hotelier.
In the United States, that's less so. Yes, the general manager most likely studied hotel management but many of the other employees are just doing this as a "job" and not a career. They aren't nearly as polished. There's for sure a noticeable difference. You even notice it in restaurants, where front-of-the-house staff don't know how to properly serve food, pour wine, or set a table because being a waitress or bartender is just a "job." By contrast, you have say Paris where they have waiter schools and people will spend a career as a waiter.
It reminds me of a friend who owns a company. He said he would rather hire someone with no experience who he could then train and put on a path toward a career than someone who has held a lot of jobs and will bring bad habits and may leave as soon as they find something else.
Within North America, Marriott general managers, both Marriott employees and third-party management company employees, are pretty good about throwing points at you for customer service recovery. Of course, I'm more interested in fixing the problem or issue so it doesn't happen again.
Sadly, I think most of the time they just throw points at you, hoping you'll go away and they won't have to deal with this again. I say that because I've returned to properties only to see the same issues reoccur.
Generally, Marriott-managed properties are better.
I've said this in other threads but I think part of the problem is who works at hotels.
Internationally, particularly in Europe or Southeast Asia, working at a big international branded hotel is prestigious. Many of the employees, even front desk clerks and junior manages, are young, well-educated, and working toward a career as a hotelier.
In the United States, that's less so. Yes, the general manager most likely studied hotel management but many of the other employees are just doing this as a "job" and not a career. They aren't nearly as polished. There's for sure a noticeable difference. You even notice it in restaurants, where front-of-the-house staff don't know how to properly serve food, pour wine, or set a table because being a waitress or bartender is just a "job." By contrast, you have say Paris where they have waiter schools and people will spend a career as a waiter.
It reminds me of a friend who owns a company. He said he would rather hire someone with no experience who he could then train and put on a path toward a career than someone who has held a lot of jobs and will bring bad habits and may leave as soon as they find something else.
I think it's even worse in the USA. I suspect that few of the Marriott family general managers have hotel management degrees, for example at limited service and other lower tier brands, which are the majority of Marriott family hotels.
In fact, in the USA there are few hotel management programs. Cornell and NYU are very prestigious (with many of their graduates going into hotel finance and hotel real estate rather than real hotel management) and IIRC there are some in Nevada, but it's not a common program in USA colleges and universities. I suspect that most GMs have the same sort of training as the manager of a large fast food place or family dining chain restaurant, convenience store, chain drug store, etc., which isn't much.
OTOH, I've talked with servers in Southeast Asia hotel lounges who were very proud of doing this as an internship on the way to a hospitality degree is one of their country's more prestigious institutions. I've seen front desk managers and loyalty managers who were obviously multilingual foreigners moving around for international experience on their way up. It may help that in some of these countries' labor markets, educated woman have traditionally been relegated to serving tea and similar duties. Also, traditionally, young people live at home until marriage, so lower salaries may be more acceptable and still permit them to buy the luxury brand clothing and cosmetic products/services that would be expected if work doesn't require that a uniform be worn.
In Europe there are some hotel schools where students enter at age 15-19 (instead of going to university--more like a trade school) as well as the MBA programs that specialize on the "luxury segment." Otherwise, traditional universities wouldn't have hotel departments/programs and the MBA is a relatively new degree that's more commonly offered by private stand-alone business schools that aren't part of a university, such as INSEAD, or HEC for a very prestigious "public" example. England is somewhat different.
In fact, in the USA there are few hotel management programs. Cornell and NYU are very prestigious (with many of their graduates going into hotel finance and hotel real estate rather than real hotel management) and IIRC there are some in Nevada, but it's not a common program in USA colleges and universities. I suspect that most GMs have the same sort of training as the manager of a large fast food place or family dining chain restaurant, convenience store, chain drug store, etc., which isn't much.
OTOH, I've talked with servers in Southeast Asia hotel lounges who were very proud of doing this as an internship on the way to a hospitality degree is one of their country's more prestigious institutions. I've seen front desk managers and loyalty managers who were obviously multilingual foreigners moving around for international experience on their way up. It may help that in some of these countries' labor markets, educated woman have traditionally been relegated to serving tea and similar duties. Also, traditionally, young people live at home until marriage, so lower salaries may be more acceptable and still permit them to buy the luxury brand clothing and cosmetic products/services that would be expected if work doesn't require that a uniform be worn.
In Europe there are some hotel schools where students enter at age 15-19 (instead of going to university--more like a trade school) as well as the MBA programs that specialize on the "luxury segment." Otherwise, traditional universities wouldn't have hotel departments/programs and the MBA is a relatively new degree that's more commonly offered by private stand-alone business schools that aren't part of a university, such as INSEAD, or HEC for a very prestigious "public" example. England is somewhat different.
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
To be honest, the one and only reason I have not made the switch is because of Hilton's lousy late check-out benefit (or a lack thereof). There is no guaranteed/published late checkout benefit even for Diamond as far as I can tell. Now, if Hilton were to introduce this, I would probably switch immediately, but I use this benefit far too much with Marriott at this point to go without it.
#27
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Plat; *A Gold; Marriott Gold
Posts: 351
On edit: from the Hilton press release here: https://newsroom.hilton.com/corporat...ng-initiatives
"Gained more than 14 million new Hilton Honors members, bringing total membership to more than 85 million at year end
Looks like they're claiming net new membership. OK....
#28
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,120
Wont be surprised if the changes on Bonvoy drives members elsewhere.
For example, the loss of multiple night credits and stay based qualifications.
People who regularly book multiple rooms will definitely looking for other programs that credit those extra rooms.
Likewise, people who did plenty of short stays will looking for loyalty scheme that count stays like old SPG
Personally I book multiple rooms on some of my stays, so 2019 night count will definitely lower than 2018.
And if I cant reach any meaningful tier on Bonvoy, then I will end up moving my stays altogether to other chain.
For example, the loss of multiple night credits and stay based qualifications.
People who regularly book multiple rooms will definitely looking for other programs that credit those extra rooms.
Likewise, people who did plenty of short stays will looking for loyalty scheme that count stays like old SPG
Personally I book multiple rooms on some of my stays, so 2019 night count will definitely lower than 2018.
And if I cant reach any meaningful tier on Bonvoy, then I will end up moving my stays altogether to other chain.
There's been zero difference in my experience between Plat, Titanium (formerly Plat Premier) and Ambassador. But Plat has been pretty solid, so meh?
#29
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: Bonvoy :Ambassador , ALL :Diamond, Skywards :Silver, Krisflyer :Silver
Posts: 2,778
It depends. One side is status, the other is benefits. Hilton Diamond is pretty spectacularly underwhelming. So, sure, you get more stays and a higher "comparable" status, but you may not come out ahead in the end.
There's been zero difference in my experience between Plat, Titanium (formerly Plat Premier) and Ambassador. But Plat has been pretty solid, so meh?
There's been zero difference in my experience between Plat, Titanium (formerly Plat Premier) and Ambassador. But Plat has been pretty solid, so meh?
The person will have Gold Bonvoy. room upgrade (non suite), 2pm late check out if available and silver benefit
At Hilton he will have Diamond which include upgrade to 1 bedroom suite (and being higher tier, I would say he will have better priority on upgrade) late check out (no specific time but all based on availability anyway) and 2 bottles of water!
I would say he got better benefit at Hilton but obviously he losing the footprint of Marriott.
#30
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: LAX and LHR. UA lifetime Gold 1.9MM 1K , DL Gold Medallion, HHonors Gold, Marriott Gold, Avis President's Club
Posts: 3,590
As a downgraded (because of the merger) Plat who is also Hilton Gold, I have had no hesitation in transferring the majority of my stays to Hilton. There is simply no incentive to remain with Marriott. Where there is no alternative, I use Marrriott, but not otherwise. It's a no-brainer.