May I ask, Citi shutdown is for life? or you haven't tested it again.

Many on here optimize spend for bonus categories, including buying gift cards at one merchant where there is a bonus to use at a merchants where there wouldn't be a bonus. The risks with doing this are twofold. First, the terms and conditions with most cards state that gift cards are ineligible for earning reward points. Second, the large dollar amount is behavior consistent with those who are reselling gift cards, so your large purchases could be misconstrued. The occasional gift card from an office supply store on a card with office supply stores as a category bonus may blend into the mix, but if that represents the bulk of purchases on the card I would say that will likely put your account under manual review.

Interesting.

Does it really say that you cannot earn 5x bonus on gc? Where does it say that?

I know is says that on portal and indeed you will rarely get the portal to mistakenly award you their points on top of the 5x but I didn't know they said you can't do it for regular gc purchase. Can you refer me where they say that? I feel that is something they can easily block if they indeed don't want you to do it...

On your 2nd point of large spend triggering manual review, I intend on trying to not be too griddy. So online home depot orders for store pick up, which represent about 30% of expenses, I will use portal+freedom to go to 3.5. I will also try to minimize gc purchasing where I am not far off form the 5x... travel I will use CSR instead of GC (uber gc, airbnb gc, delta gc, and so on). But if they do review and contact me about my spending I will tell them the truth. I have learned that I can do this and earn more miles so I will like to work harder by buying gc vs pay with cc to earn those mile. If they say that is a no-no I will go from there.

Chase doesn't specifically exclude gift cards like some other issuers, but they have broad discretion in the sense that if they think you are gaming them they have the ability to close your accounts.

If you are using the portal plus Freedom Unlimited, that is as intended and won't present any concerns. My point was assuming you were going into an office supply store, buying gift cards that could be used at Home Depot for the 5x on the Ink and then using those gift cards for yourself (not reselling them). If you are doing this, you might not receive that courtesy call from the issuer. They will simply shut down the account since your behavior matches people who are engaged in true MS.

That is indeed annoying. Any idea how to minimize that option of them closing me because they think I am MS'ing?

I mostly buy online gc (e-gift card from staples) or I buy from Gyft... Will that be any better? Another idea - will calling them and letting them know that I will be renovating and will be putting more expenses on these cards help?

[MENTION=870329]bklgafly[/MENTION]

You are not going to get reassurance regardless how many times and threads you asked about your scenario.

The thing is, Chase (or any other bank), use a model that gauge the "normal" consumer behaviors and flag accounts that dont fit such "normal" pattern. Then the banks simply kill the flagged accounts, often without human intervention.

The amount you described to spend, is a fairly large amount of $400K renovation project albeit spread over a year - it definitely not fits a "normal" spend pattern at Office Supply stores, regardless how many Ink Cash cards (4 or 6 per your other threads) you have to rotate from. Pretty high chance the accounts would be flagged if each of your Ink Cash is maxed out on the $25K annual 5x spend.

The key words in Chase T&Cs - are their cards being used as "intended". Chase certainly does not intend for cardholders to shift spend category via category bonus to maximize the earnings of the reward program (or in your case, to maximize your actual saving on real expenditure). The Ink cards are designed for Spend for business at the office supply stores, that do not take into consideration of GCs are readily available in those stores. If you know the history of the Ink cards, you would know the reasons behind why 1) OD stopped selling $500 cash equivalent, 2) Chase put a cap on the annual category bonus spend. That happened 3 years ago. Eventually Chase stopped offering Ink Bold, followed by Ink Plus, but leaves Ink Cash alone due to the annual cap is relatively "reasonable".
Understanding the history of how Ink cards had evolved, may help you to discover other, albeit less "lucrative" alternatives to save money on your expensive renovation project. there are several suggestions in the other thread you posted your questions. Worth to consider.

Saving money is a good thing especially 5% on $400K spend, but you would also need to weight on what you would potentially face from the bank's risk control model.

I understand. I am not looking for reassurance - I am hoping to get some ideas from you guys on how to reduce my risk as I am not a churnner but you are right - if Chase will decide that I am - it will be hard to sway them otherwise.

One good tip I got already is to use portal where I can when it is not so far off from 5x. BTW... b/c I have the CSR those 5 points are really 7.5% if I redeem in travel portal. Which is why I do want to take advantage of it.

I would love to hear what other steps I can take to reduce it....

Some of my thoughts are: should I close unused non chase cards now? Should I call Chase before starting work and tell them I will be using my cards much more? is buying e gift card better than physical in my quest to not be flagged a churner? (in other words - are churners using more physical vs e gift or is it the same...? ) should I move around my cl so my cards are more even? (I have two cards with 5k each then one card with 25k...)

I am not sure how you churners do it but I am hoping that chase can see that I am not redepositing into my accounts. I only have bank accounts with one more bank which I never use really.

Hopefully algo will see that I am not a churner but you are indeed correct that Chase has an incentive to shut me down nonetheless.

First of all, I am not in the category of your definition of churners. But I am mindful of being inadvertently caught in the random fires of Chase' shoot first policy. Hence I read the DPs and make my list of things to avoid.

Besides, you cannot churn Chase cards anyway. So the "churner" concept does not really apply here.

I understand your argument on the CSR - that only works if you can always use the 1.5x travel booked thru UR portal. In reality personally I have found that is near impossible, especially if one has hotel status therefore booking direct is mandatory in order to enjoy the benefits that come with the statuses. Flights - only work for domestic coach fares. Everything else does not work for us. Would not risk forfeiting rental car CDW coverage to use UR pts versus use the CSR card itself. YMMV though.

Managing your CLs definitely should be one action you should take. $5K CL is too low for what you want to do because you dont want to use up the CL each billing cycle even you pay it in full before statement closes. If you have other business cards, you can reallocate CL to the Ink Cash cards.
Hardly used personal cards should not take up large CLs due to the issue of "exposure" to the banks. The old school of "higher CLs would only improve the utilization ratio" is outdated in the current environment when banks are looking more at their exposures than the card member's utilization ratio. Some banks actually would CUT the credit lines on cards that hardly used, or only used for smallish purchases now and then. The trend tends to put the emphasis to the UNSECURED credit line exposure, than monitoring the cardholder's overall utilization ratio. After all, the available credit line can promptly be used up in the case when the cardholder is in financial distress, even the cardholder usually has a very low utilization ratio.

I apologize. I am actually not 100% clear on what is churning which is why I am trying to fully explain my usage so it is better understood.

I will start closing non functioning cards and move around cl. I wanted to apply my wife to an ink cash as well but I made the mistake of adding her as an authorized user when I applied for mine.. which might have added to her 5/24 count. Should I not be concerned?

Is buying e gift card better in my situation? (trying to signal to chase that I do not MS these and do use them at merchant)

The only physical gc I buy at the store is amazon... Our day to day spend is like 70-80% amazon haha.... so I do spend a nice amount there. Some of the renovation expense will go there as well as they have great pricing on materials as well.

Any other good ideas on how to reduce the risk?

churning is closing and opening cards to take advantage of bonuses.

I wouldn't close other cards if they have a long history, especially if it was one of the longest ones you had.

I see.

Two of those cards are 3 years old. Is that considered long history? If not I will close them.

I want to thank everyone here again for giving me advise. I appreciate this.

Is it a fair statement to say that most people who have reported they accounts closed both here and on that reddit site have open and closed many many (like 20 or so in a matter of a couple of years) or have been doing MS with a short history of credit? That is the gist I got from reading there and here but I wonder if anyone else agrees

It's sort of relative. If you have a 25 year credit history, then, no, 3 years isn't long. But if you are 22 years old and only have a 4 year credit history, then, yes, 3 years matters. In general, I'd vote for closing them if they really aren't doing anything for you.

I'm also of the opinion that Ch@se doesn't really care about MS too much. A few years ago they were happy to sell us their own VGC for no fee, with their own credit cards. Does anyone else remember those good old days? (I know, times have changed.)

BUT, if suddenly you're maxing out the $15k credit limit on 4 cards at once, that's probably going to get their attention.

Have you spent some time to read the STICKY in the Chase forum on Applying Chase Cards 2017 Onward?
That should answer your question about your wife's being an AU on your Ink Cash. (hint, Ink Cash is a business card).

Closed cards remain in your credit report for 10 more years if not longer, and they continue to be included in the Average Age. What you lose though, is their available credit limits which would mean your aggregated credit lines would be reduced - a 2-edged sword if you will. On one hand, it reduces your risk profile to the banks. On the other hand. it also increases your utilization ratio.

For what you plan to do, it should take some more preparation and then you slowly ramp it up. Sudden surge in spend always is iffy to any bank.

No need to scare-monger. Chase wants you to use their cards. And plenty of businesses have a lot of office expenses, and alot at once from time to time. And gift cards can certainly be business expenses. DoC had an interview with a Chase product manager awhile back who specifically said they don't mind people maxing their categories. "Some businesses spend $50k on office supplies." Seriously, Staples offers an extra gift card for certain purchases, can't you offer one for your customers too? For all your customers? People need to chill out. Everything in moderation. And besides, I haven't heard of anyone getting a Chase shutdown for using Inks.

I
 

I feel like I've been kinda monitoring this thread for a few months. Saw a comment on Reddit MS thread today about how a person got FR after trying to MS on their charge card (old Amex PRG), but that they previously spend 6 figures on their Amex Credit Cards. Other experiences of FR or shutdown via MS on charge cards? Only asking because I know there's a school of thought that new Amex Gold was rolled out with 4x grocery to possibly "catch" any MSers who want to max grocery spend quickly. I'm on pace to be around $8k/month, but so far, no issues since the month began.

1. Thanks for the useful info.
2. Part of a local Telegram group, and I like those guys a lot, so I'm not going to burn any places for myself or them.
3. I never set foot in WM, as I have good relationship with cashiers at local grocers.
4. I doubt my 8k/month means much to the long timers here who probably do that in a day.

1. C@pital one Sp@rk
2. 1 yr, $21K
3. NA. Have an incidental small savings account
4. $330K YTD
5. Absolutely
6. Had 3 cards in 3 different names with 3 different account #'s and BPed all 3
7. Nope

Curiously I got a call from "my" account manager two weeks later asking how they could meet my needs better. He didn't know I'd been drop-kicked into the third row. I eventually explained chapter and verse of MS to him. His bread is buttered by maximizing volume in his assigned accounts. He sounds like he's going to try to get me reinstated, although I'm not holding my breath. Shutdown is a fact of life in this hobby, we just move on.

I just receive my new Ink Plus card (due to the previous one expiring this month) and noticed in the accompanying papers the line "Business Transactions Only....not intended for personal, household...use..."...I don't think I saw this language before (have had this card for a number of years)...since many of us use it in office supplies stores for 5x points and not for "business transactions only" - I wonder if this new language is some premonition to what might come?...or just something I might have not noticed before?

1. SHUTdn by Bank, Credit Card info. (@m3x, chs3 ,c1t1 and brcl@y) c1t1
2. Length of account before closure and CL? 6 years
3. Average monthly account balance checking and savings? NA
4. Volume of ms per month and how many months? 2k irregular, 36 months
5. Cycle CL? No
6. Did you BP using both options? No
- BP by issuing bank (@m3x, chs3, c1t1 and brcl@y)
- BP by Vis/MC
7. Did you spell out the bank's full name in an internet forum? No

I told my story on the thread concerning the involved cc. The letter closing all my accounts stated that I had too many open revolving credit accounts. I was doing mailers, I had opened eleven in the last twelve months, twenty-one in the last two years, mostly mailers. I think eyes on my account were the cause from a cancelled award ticket, the taxes and fees were refunded to the original cc, which had been closed months earlier. Undaunted, I applied with another mailer and received a letter that my application can't be approved because the credit privileges on your existing account(s) are currently restricted.
Any idea how long I have to wait before I can start again?

I think it is just something you haven't noticed before. That is pretty standard language for business credit cards.

How long was it between the cancelled award ticket and the closing of your open accounts? How much was the credit refund? Typically citi takes 90 days to process the refund on closed (and open) accounts. Did your account closure happen shortly after receiving the refund check?

Your answers will help us understand if the two are actually related as you suspect. Citi has been known to close accounts when they deem someone a risky customer (e.g. when a credit score drops significantly) but those rules may not apply in this scenario.

Thanks for your response. The amount of the refund was ca $25. The refund was on the closed account 8 days after the award cancellation. The remaining open accounts were closed about 30 days after the credit for the refund appeared on the closed account. I called and requested a check be mailed for the refund after receiving the Notice of account closure(s) notification.

So if I understand correctly, your two open accounts were closed about 30 days after the 25$ credit refund appeared on the closed account. I am assuming that you did not call the bank about the refund until you received the notice of account closures, at which point you likely decided to call in and request the refund instead of waiting for the bank to send you a check automatically (typically 90 days after credit shows on closed account).

Assuming that describes what happened accurately I doubt the 25$ credit triggered the shutdown (unless you're very unlucky I suppose). I'm using mailers as well and earlier this year had a 2k ticket refunded to a closed aa card (closed a few months before refund was issued). Citi sent me a check three months later and I never heard anything again. A friend, also using mailers, had 500$ refunded on a closed TY card and also received his check three months later without adverse action.

How was your credit report looking around the time your accounts where shutdown? Anything to cause the bank to decide you were a risky customer?

I'm sorry I don't know how long the blacklist lasts once the bank in question closes accounts by itself. There were some data points a few years ago (not good) but no idea if things have changed. I'm hoping understanding the cause will help you find the right data point (assuming someone posted it in the forums).

Best of luck.

My credit report is fine, nothing unusual, credit score 777. The only other things that may have been got attention is that one month I did 8K of MS, VGC to meet minimum spending, when I usually only do 3-4K every other month. And my stated income on my last two ccs that were approved was 50% higher than previous apps earlier in the year. I am retired, I changed it to household income. I thought the reason for the closures was the churning, the numerous cc accounts that were opened and closed, and anything else simply brought the wrong eyes on the account. Perhaps you were lucky that your 2K refund didn't have the same results.

I've seen that years ago.

Ah. You quadrupled your spending. That's a known risk factor. If you always did 8k/month, that would be normal for you. But doing it as a one off is a red flag for obvious reasons...

$8k/month is almost nothing. CC bank does not care. But MO is another story.

BoA full shutdown
 

1. Full shutdown by BoA for me and SO yesterday:
Personal checking, business checking, joint personal saving with SO, joint saving with mom, SO's checking
BoA Premium Rewards CC, BoA Cash Rewards CC, BoA Business Travel CC
BoA Premium Rewards CC (SO), BoA Cash Rewards CC (SO)

2. Length of account before closure and CL?
around 3 years for most accounts and 1 year for BoA Premium Rewards CCs. Combined CL around $90K

3. Average monthly account balance checking and savings?
between $100K to $200K

4. Volume of ms per month and how many months?
Not exactly MS but around $400K/month in the last 2 months (increased from around $100K in the beginning 2018)

5. Cycle CL?
Yes

No BP. No gift cards. No money orders. I am doing a low margin reselling business and it is taking off recently. 2.625% cash back is important for my business so we were using BoA Premium Rewards.

We have a little over 1M points (worth over $10K) pending on our BoA Premium Rewards CCs for this month's spend. Yet to receive letters but BoA is probably not going to pay out. Statements close in a few days and we will try to redeem but it's not likely going to work. What should we do now?

Yikes, that $400k/month was all on BofA Credit Cards?

Have you explained to BofA that you were purchasing merchandise for your business?

[MENTION=890322]robchow[/MENTION] There was no chance to explain anything. BoA cards stopped working yesterday and I called today, all my accounts are already restricted. Rep told me it was a "business decision" and it cannot be reverted.
The selling proceeds were going into my BoA business checking account and used to pay BoA premium rewards CC directly. I'm not sure if this matters.

[MENTION=732566]hi55us[/MENTION] Yes those $400K were all on BoA credit cards. I have a bit more on other cards with other banks but 2.625% was too good.

I think the "low margin reselling" business is one type of the MS. You could buy GCs or any other type of merchandise and resell at profit. The CC reward is the catalyst of this "business".

If you use AmEx business charge CCs (green, gold or plat) to buy the merchandise (clothes, toys etc) and I do not think AmEx cares about your earning the reward. That is legit business spending. And you do not even need to cycle your CL.

I'm just curious as to what you were buying.

I do use Business Plat to buy my merchandise to resell. However, that card only gives 1.5X points which are worth 1.875% cash back if I have Schwab Plat, which is obviously not as good as 2.625% by BoA. I also use some other 2% cash back CC. Because of the volume of my business the difference in cash back matters a lot to me. And some cards don't give me very generous credit line so it is difficult for me to charge >$100K per month.

Regardless of the CB rate, this has to be on business CC and you can't cycle the CL. So the business charge CC is about the only "safe" way to go. And AmEx receives Level 3 codes and they can say what merchandise you can or can't buy for business purposes. Liquid or money equivalent "merchandise" is considered MS activity. If you buy or sell DVD, toys, games or clothes, it is legit business.

Also, after you set up your business, BA or any other banks should be able to open higher CL on your business CCs. I've dealt with both BA and WF small business people. They are eager to open CL for you.