Jan 2, 2017, 7:37 pm
Last edit by: Marathon Man
NEW TO MS: Do some serious reading for a month of all the posts and wiki to get an understanding of MS before asking common questions.
Note: the 2016 version of this thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1737819-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2016-a-39.html#post27694986, the 2015 version of the thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1642283-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2015-a.html
Welcome to Manufactured Spending. Marathon Man did not write this message, but he has edited it and anyone can. If you are new here, please spend some time reading before posting. Most likely your questions have already been answered multiple times. Consider deals that you share. These threads are searchable by Google. A volatile deal may be worth holding close to the vest.
Hints
1) On FT, topics are heavily consolidated. Sometimes the title of the thread and first few posts may not properly reflect the broad range of discussion inside the thread. Be sure to visit any thread relating to the product or service you want to learn more about because you might be surprised by how in depth the discussion really is. High "View Count" and "Replies" are good indicators of active "master threads" on a specific topic.
2) Use Google to search FT. It works a lot better than the built-in search.
3) A glossary wiki for MS located in the thread Glossary, Manufactured Spending Forum
Important Rules
1) MSing is very YMMV. It varies by store, manager, and right down to the cashier working at the moment. Some might argue that MS is like card counting in a casino. It is not illegal but casinos don’t like it. Orhers have said it’s like having a fake ID in college to use just to get into bars where all the fun is. Just because it worked here yesterday doesn’t mean it will get you in today. MS is like being a wood worker constantly using a table saw. Always watch what you are doing—always! Or you will lose something. That being said, always be nice and courteous in the face of rejection. The biggest secret for success is to lay low so you can try again.
2) DO NOT spend more than you can afford. START WITH SMALL AMOUNTS TO TEST THE WATER! As an example.. don't start with a $5000 purchase of VGCs if you can't afford to float that much! Instead, buy one and try it, and scale up once you are comfortable with a new method. It's easy to lose track, or get robbed, when you are handling so much money. Getting a refund is NOT always possible.
3) DO NOT ask employees, cashiers, customer service representatives, etc... about how to MS, or about things you read on this forum. The information you read here are very specific, unknown, legal uses of products or services. Most employees, cashiers, and even managers do not know about them. At best you'll get bad information. At worst you'll create a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding.
4) It bears repeating that there are no guarantees. you could easily buy $10,000 in gift cards or some other instrument, only to discover that your method for liquidating them vanishes the very next day. MS is not "normal" financial activity ("normal" being defined by the banks), and thus is often perceived as "suspicious" even if it is legal.
5) never underestimate the risk of criminal activity. gift cards can easily be stolen, loaded onto a compromised account, loaded in a debit card skimmer, or even fraudulent (e.g., an already used card put back on the rack).
6) MSing can be used for a variety of purposes, ranging from smallish amounts to meet minimum spend requirements to get a credit card signup bonus, to accumulating huge numbers of points for travel/cashback/etc. Remember too that you will often have expenses such as purchase fees, liquidation fees, and gas.
If you have a question that does not seem to fit anywhere, or you have not found an appropriate place for it, post it here.
- A helpful note from seat17D about some of the inherent risks of MS
New MSers can also read all these threads:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending-719/
Note: the 2016 version of this thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1737819-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2016-a-39.html#post27694986, the 2015 version of the thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1642283-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2015-a.html
Welcome to Manufactured Spending. Marathon Man did not write this message, but he has edited it and anyone can. If you are new here, please spend some time reading before posting. Most likely your questions have already been answered multiple times. Consider deals that you share. These threads are searchable by Google. A volatile deal may be worth holding close to the vest.
Hints
1) On FT, topics are heavily consolidated. Sometimes the title of the thread and first few posts may not properly reflect the broad range of discussion inside the thread. Be sure to visit any thread relating to the product or service you want to learn more about because you might be surprised by how in depth the discussion really is. High "View Count" and "Replies" are good indicators of active "master threads" on a specific topic.
2) Use Google to search FT. It works a lot better than the built-in search.
3) A glossary wiki for MS located in the thread Glossary, Manufactured Spending Forum
Important Rules
1) MSing is very YMMV. It varies by store, manager, and right down to the cashier working at the moment. Some might argue that MS is like card counting in a casino. It is not illegal but casinos don’t like it. Orhers have said it’s like having a fake ID in college to use just to get into bars where all the fun is. Just because it worked here yesterday doesn’t mean it will get you in today. MS is like being a wood worker constantly using a table saw. Always watch what you are doing—always! Or you will lose something. That being said, always be nice and courteous in the face of rejection. The biggest secret for success is to lay low so you can try again.
2) DO NOT spend more than you can afford. START WITH SMALL AMOUNTS TO TEST THE WATER! As an example.. don't start with a $5000 purchase of VGCs if you can't afford to float that much! Instead, buy one and try it, and scale up once you are comfortable with a new method. It's easy to lose track, or get robbed, when you are handling so much money. Getting a refund is NOT always possible.
3) DO NOT ask employees, cashiers, customer service representatives, etc... about how to MS, or about things you read on this forum. The information you read here are very specific, unknown, legal uses of products or services. Most employees, cashiers, and even managers do not know about them. At best you'll get bad information. At worst you'll create a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding.
4) It bears repeating that there are no guarantees. you could easily buy $10,000 in gift cards or some other instrument, only to discover that your method for liquidating them vanishes the very next day. MS is not "normal" financial activity ("normal" being defined by the banks), and thus is often perceived as "suspicious" even if it is legal.
5) never underestimate the risk of criminal activity. gift cards can easily be stolen, loaded onto a compromised account, loaded in a debit card skimmer, or even fraudulent (e.g., an already used card put back on the rack).
6) MSing can be used for a variety of purposes, ranging from smallish amounts to meet minimum spend requirements to get a credit card signup bonus, to accumulating huge numbers of points for travel/cashback/etc. Remember too that you will often have expenses such as purchase fees, liquidation fees, and gas.
If you have a question that does not seem to fit anywhere, or you have not found an appropriate place for it, post it here.
- A helpful note from seat17D about some of the inherent risks of MS
New MSers can also read all these threads:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending-719/
New to Manufactured Spending? Start here(2017-2018)
Nov 3, 2017, 8:43 am
#331
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SFO/SEA
Programs: Amex Biz Cent, Marriott LTP, Avis PC, Hilton Owners Diamond, AS MVP
Posts: 3,380
Level 3 data, what you refer to as Amex seeing detailed purchase info, is only supported by some merchants in a handful of industries like retail (department stores, clothing stores, travel, some ecommerce etc). Places where folks tend to buy VGCs, such as grocery stores and drugstores, generally have not started reporting L3 data as the amount of information is far too massive -- think about the number of line items on a typical grocery store receipt. Not to say that they won't get there eventually, but as of now it's a non-issue and I'd say no need to concern yourself.
Nov 4, 2017, 6:15 am
#332
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Spg Gold, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 1,578
The closures/bonus clawbacks appear to be mainly related to people buying VGCs to meet MSR on new cards. AFAIK it's not an issue for "regular" customers who just buy on their existing Amex cards.
Level 3 data, what you refer to as Amex seeing detailed purchase info, is only supported by some merchants in a handful of industries like retail (department stores, clothing stores, travel, some ecommerce etc). Places where folks tend to buy VGCs, such as grocery stores and drugstores, generally have not started reporting L3 data as the amount of information is far too massive -- think about the number of line items on a typical grocery store receipt. Not to say that they won't get there eventually, but as of now it's a non-issue and I'd say no need to concern yourself.
Level 3 data, what you refer to as Amex seeing detailed purchase info, is only supported by some merchants in a handful of industries like retail (department stores, clothing stores, travel, some ecommerce etc). Places where folks tend to buy VGCs, such as grocery stores and drugstores, generally have not started reporting L3 data as the amount of information is far too massive -- think about the number of line items on a typical grocery store receipt. Not to say that they won't get there eventually, but as of now it's a non-issue and I'd say no need to concern yourself.
Thanks that’s good to know. I buy all my VGCs at CVS and try to not spend more than $500 on a total $3K , to meet AMEX initial spend / MSR
Nov 5, 2017, 7:28 pm
#333
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 910
Lucky for them, they don't need proof to shut our accounts down for 'abuse of reward programs' etc. Lucky for us, banks don't enforce or implement such drastic rules for the vast majority of our VGC transactions, so we float by.
Nov 6, 2017, 3:55 am
#334
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Spg Gold, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 1,578
If Amex/any bank wanted to make an educated guess about who buys VGCs, spending $500+/transaction at CVS (or grocery stores for that matter) several times a month is pretty obvious even without L3 data.
Lucky for them, they don't need proof to shut our accounts down for 'abuse of reward programs' etc. Lucky for us, banks don't enforce or implement such drastic rules for the vast majority of our VGC transactions, so we float by.
Lucky for them, they don't need proof to shut our accounts down for 'abuse of reward programs' etc. Lucky for us, banks don't enforce or implement such drastic rules for the vast majority of our VGC transactions, so we float by.
On my Amex card for a $3K OR $5K SPEND , plus I have been an Amex customer for over 40 years , so hopefully I wont come under much scrutiny.
Nov 6, 2017, 5:45 pm
#335
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 14
Hey all! Been stalking this forum for about a month now and I had finally figured out a way to MS in New York but now that PO method is dead, so are any ways I could have MS'd. I'm not sure if anyone in NY, specifically NYC, has found any method to MS relatively safely? I recently got the SPG Biz card with the "6k spend in 3 months and 4k spend 3 months after that" for 35k points signup bonus but spending that much in that time frame is out of my means, without having to break my back, at the moment. I don't have a mortgage that I can pay into either (nor does Amex let you lol) so if anyone could point me in some sort of direction I can go to optimize this offer, I'd be really grateful. Any help is appreciated 
Worst comes to worst, I'll just have to Venmo myself or a friend I suppose...
Worst comes to worst, I'll just have to Venmo myself or a friend I suppose...
Nov 7, 2017, 7:29 am
#336
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,688
Hey all! Been stalking this forum for about a month now and I had finally figured out a way to MS in New York but now that PO method is dead, so are any ways I could have MS'd. I'm not sure if anyone in NY, specifically NYC, has found any method to MS relatively safely? I recently got the SPG Biz card with the "6k spend in 3 months and 4k spend 3 months after that" for 35k points signup bonus but spending that much in that time frame is out of my means, without having to break my back, at the moment. I don't have a mortgage that I can pay into either (nor does Amex let you lol) so if anyone could point me in some sort of direction I can go to optimize this offer, I'd be really grateful. Any help is appreciated Worst comes to worst, I'll just have to Venmo myself or a friend I suppose...
Worst comes to worst, I'll just have to Venmo myself or a friend I suppose...One route you can try is prepaying all your bills but you should know you still have to pay your CC or else you incur interests which I'm certain you will not like. Hindsight is always 20/20, for now, you may have to weigh if you'll continue to MS paying the huge fees with Venmo (this is not 100% risk free because you can be shutdown at anytime) or just forego the 35K starpoints bonus and all you lose is a hardpull on your credit.
You may have to do a lot more reading and research, google can be your friend.
Nov 7, 2017, 7:54 am
#337
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 14
If you have lurked this forum for at least a month, you should've known that MS in NY is quite challenging aside from the fact there are a lot of MSers there. Had you known that, would you have proceeded to apply for the spg biz card with a $6K spend requirement in 90 days? If you did, did you have any back up methods just in case your first line of liquidation which was the PO, failed? I wouldn't suggest Venmo but if that is your only viable way to meet your MSR, just be prepared in case the rats (abuse team of the CC) disqualify that type of spend to meet your required spend. Read the terms of your CC agreement regarding delayed posting of starpoints up to 12 weeks. This gives them enough time to review your purchases. You should've read other people's issues with delayed posting of starpoints which they applied for spring of 2017.
One route you can try is prepaying all your bills but you should know you still have to pay your CC or else you incur interests which I'm certain you will not like. Hindsight is always 20/20, for now, you may have to weigh if you'll continue to MS paying the huge fees with Venmo (this is not 100% risk free because you can be shutdown at anytime) or just forego the 35K starpoints bonus and all you lose is a hardpull on your credit.
You may have to do a lot more reading and research, google can be your friend.
One route you can try is prepaying all your bills but you should know you still have to pay your CC or else you incur interests which I'm certain you will not like. Hindsight is always 20/20, for now, you may have to weigh if you'll continue to MS paying the huge fees with Venmo (this is not 100% risk free because you can be shutdown at anytime) or just forego the 35K starpoints bonus and all you lose is a hardpull on your credit.
You may have to do a lot more reading and research, google can be your friend.
. The prepaying my bills route is also another route I planned on taking in case I'd fall short with my rent but thanks for the suggestion anyways. I definitely don't plan on forgoing the 35k starpoints, where theres a will, theres a way and I think I've found a new method close to where I live but I'll be doing a test run later today to make sure. But I absolutely agree with you, I'll have to do a lot more research for NYC specifically but finding legitimate or current DPs is somewhat difficult. But I won't give up since from the sound of your response, there are viable ways but most likely unicorns. But thats pretty much what I wanted to know! Now that I know theres hope, I'll do my best to find it
. Thanks again mamibear! Appreciate it
Nov 7, 2017, 9:54 am
#338
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SAN
Programs: Delta Gold. Hilton Diamond. Hyatt Explorist.
Posts: 1,674
I really don't see why the RATS would have a problem with paying your rent via Plastiq. That is not MS and not against their terms.
Nov 7, 2017, 12:05 pm
#339
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SFO/SEA
Programs: Amex Biz Cent, Marriott LTP, Avis PC, Hilton Owners Diamond, AS MVP
Posts: 3,380
Thanks for the reply mamibear! I already knew NY was MS hell but I still figured it would be relatively easy for me since I have a really good relationship with one of the ladies at my PO. Although it is a huge bummer that an easy route was shut down, I know its not impossible. I actually didn't apply for the spg biz assuming to MS. I can meet the MSR without MSing but it would just be a pain and probably cost some sort of % (such as Plastiq). I know Venmo payments would be challenged but I can just talk to my landlord and pay rent using Plastiq and should the RATS have any problem with that, I can easily dispute that its a legitimate expense via landlord .
The prepaying my bills route is also another route I planned on taking in case I'd fall short with my rent but thanks for the suggestion anyways. I definitely don't plan on forgoing the 35k starpoints, where theres a will, theres a way and I think I've found a new method close to where I live but I'll be doing a test run later today to make sure. But I absolutely agree with you, I'll have to do a lot more research for NYC specifically but finding legitimate or current DPs is somewhat difficult. But I won't give up since from the sound of your response, there are viable ways but most likely unicorns. But thats pretty much what I wanted to know! Now that I know theres hope, I'll do my best to find it. Thanks again mamibear! Appreciate it
. The prepaying my bills route is also another route I planned on taking in case I'd fall short with my rent but thanks for the suggestion anyways. I definitely don't plan on forgoing the 35k starpoints, where theres a will, theres a way and I think I've found a new method close to where I live but I'll be doing a test run later today to make sure. But I absolutely agree with you, I'll have to do a lot more research for NYC specifically but finding legitimate or current DPs is somewhat difficult. But I won't give up since from the sound of your response, there are viable ways but most likely unicorns. But thats pretty much what I wanted to know! Now that I know theres hope, I'll do my best to find it
. Thanks again mamibear! Appreciate it
Nov 7, 2017, 3:11 pm
#340
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 14
I'm just paranoid about all this since I haven't actually started MS at all and I've read that Amex is pretty strict when it comes to their guidelines or spending so I didnt know how I could legitimize rent payment as a business expense besides calling it my "office" but I guess they don't delve that deep.
And thanks for the tip brosnan6! Just found DoC's list of accounts that can be funded and I'll definitely give BMO Harris a shot ^
And thanks for the tip brosnan6! Just found DoC's list of accounts that can be funded and I'll definitely give BMO Harris a shot ^
Nov 8, 2017, 8:30 am
#341
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: North Texas
Programs: SWA A-List, Marriott Platinum, Hilton Gold
Posts: 188
I'm just paranoid about all this since I haven't actually started MS at all and I've read that Amex is pretty strict when it comes to their guidelines or spending so I didnt know how I could legitimize rent payment as a business expense besides calling it my "office" but I guess they don't delve that deep.
And thanks for the tip brosnan6! Just found DoC's list of accounts that can be funded and I'll definitely give BMO Harris a shot ^
And thanks for the tip brosnan6! Just found DoC's list of accounts that can be funded and I'll definitely give BMO Harris a shot ^
Nov 8, 2017, 12:39 pm
#342
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1
Hey all! Been stalking this forum for about a month now and I had finally figured out a way to MS in New York but now that PO method is dead, so are any ways I could have MS'd. I'm not sure if anyone in NY, specifically NYC, has found any method to MS relatively safely? I recently got the SPG Biz card with the "6k spend in 3 months and 4k spend 3 months after that" for 35k points signup bonus but spending that much in that time frame is out of my means, without having to break my back, at the moment. I don't have a mortgage that I can pay into either (nor does Amex let you lol) so if anyone could point me in some sort of direction I can go to optimize this offer, I'd be really grateful. Any help is appreciated Worst comes to worst, I'll just have to Venmo myself or a friend I suppose...
Worst comes to worst, I'll just have to Venmo myself or a friend I suppose...
Nov 8, 2017, 2:24 pm
#343
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PHX & AGP
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 11,453
I'm in upstate NY where it's a little more laxed but I've done some MS downstate (Jersey border) where my family is. Best method I've found is BlueBird. Buy VGCs then load BlueBird at customer service at a Walmart. There aren't Walmarts in the city but I bet there are some just outside like in White Plains or somewhere close. If you travel out of NYC for a weekend you can do multiple hits in one weekend. Just space them out and go to different stores if you can. Large hauls tend to skeeve out the cashiers. You can also only do $5,000 in loads to BlueBird a month so try to max it out if you can.
Nov 8, 2017, 9:28 pm
#344
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 14
I could use Plastiq but I'm fine on rent thus far and I don't wanna pay too much in advance since I plan on moving somewhat soon and 10k rent would tie me up for almost half a year, so I'd like to avoid that route as much as possible. I've done a ton more research since I posted (I should've started with reddit first tbh) and I've found methods that work but these are honestly ticking time bombs.
And sadly, the part of NYC that I live in is more than 60 miles away from a WM and I have no interest in making a 120 mile RT for that low volume (compared to some people on here
). Thanks though! I really wish I lived closer to them and I don't really take trips locally so there goes that 
. I guess the best I can hope for is to find some unicorns during my typical MS routes.
Sorry for coming off as asking to be spoonfed. I mainly wanted an inkling of hope that there are people in NYC who successfully MS and a good amount too. Honestly, it seems like a really fun hobby if you learn to read between the lines and keep an eye out, while thinking creatively. Thanks for the tips though guys, really appreciate it and best of luck everyone out there (the ones whom aren't burning methods) who still does this!
And sadly, the part of NYC that I live in is more than 60 miles away from a WM and I have no interest in making a 120 mile RT for that low volume (compared to some people on here
). Thanks though! I really wish I lived closer to them and I don't really take trips locally so there goes that . I guess the best I can hope for is to find some unicorns during my typical MS routes.Sorry for coming off as asking to be spoonfed. I mainly wanted an inkling of hope that there are people in NYC who successfully MS and a good amount too. Honestly, it seems like a really fun hobby if you learn to read between the lines and keep an eye out, while thinking creatively. Thanks for the tips though guys, really appreciate it and best of luck everyone out there (the ones whom aren't burning methods) who still does this!
Nov 9, 2017, 9:50 pm
#345
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 747
Are Redbirds still available and obtainable? Had been looking for one and can't seem to find any around anymore in the wild.