Break even MS?
 

So many changes in the MS landscape...if you are mostly out of big bonus signups, any thoughts on best low cost/no cost/small profit MS strategies? Looking at all options-gift card reselling? Anything with currency or gold? Interested in any current stories/ideas!

INK is my favorite. 4 cards can generate over 1MM miles a year for about $6k.

you're on the right forum. now start reading! all the answers are literally on the first page :)

wow, i salute you if that was all on $200 vgcs!

thats 1,000 of them!

And highly useful answers are on the second page and the third page, with it getting to be a dearth after that. Just because it's not heavily discussed doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

As to the topic at hand, I was envisioning something different. Like, breaking even after points are accounted. For example, buying a $500 card with a $5 fee and then redeeming the points at 1% for $5 to break even.

Obviously, for most people, that would not be worth the time or effort. However, that could be immensely helpful when you have a large minimum spend to meet or when you're trying to meet a large spend bonus (e.g., spend $30 000 in a year, get a travel together ticket on British Airways).

Other than meeting sign-up minimums and other spending targets, all my MS activity goes on 5% unlimited cash back "Old Blue" accounts.

$500 GC at a grocery store:

Cost: $505.95
Cashback: $25.30
Net cost: $480.65
Typical net profit: $19.35 per card after $5.95 card fee
Typical net profit per $10k spend = $387

I say "typical" because that assumes you are paying full gift card fees, which might not be the case. Our local grocery store gives a 1% discount to members of the Booster Club of the local high school, so my net cost per $500 card is only $500.89, for net of $482.20 on $10k spend at that store. Another grocery chain gives gas discounts on spend there, so that would come off the cost column. (And never mind all the free hams and turkeys at Christmas and Easter.)

But lets assume I wasn't so lucky...

Even if I intend to use MS activity for travel, I find it easier and more efficient to use the 5% cash-back money to purchase plane tickets, hotel, etc than to try to generate a lower return in travel points on some other credit card. On a recent trip to the Caribbean a round trip ticket for my selected dates was 50,000 United points... or $730 cash.

Forgetting sign-up bonuses and starting with ZERO points/dollars, look at what that ticket would cost if you used various cards to MS your way onto that flight...

UNITED MILES
$50k in United Visa Spend + $595 out of pocket costs in card fees for 100 $500 cards, which then requires you to liquidate ONE HUNDRED GCs

CHASE UR POINTS
$10k in Ink spend at Staples + $297 out of pocket costs in card fees for 50 $200 cards, which then requires you to liquidate FIFTY GCs

BARCLAY ARRIVAL POINTS
$33k in spend on a Barclay Arrival card + $392 out of pocket costs in card fees for 66 $500 cards, which then requires you to liquidate SIXTY SIX GCs

OL BLUE CASH BACK
$18k in spend on an Ol' Blue card with ZERO net out of pocket card fees and only 36 $500 cards to liquidate.

Far more cost-efficient and time efficient. How long would it take you to liquidate SIXTY SIX visa GCs... to save $340 on a plane ticket compared to the value of your time. You'd probably be earning less than minimum wage on the time you spent going to Walmart every day for two weeks.

PLUS... since I will use the money to purchase the tickets from the airline there are no black out dates, seat availability is good, I can use that airline's credit card to book the flight to earn those miles too (or a Barclay card and then use those points to pay that bill, or purchase the tickets through the Chase travel portal, or use an AmEx to buy the ticket... and points to pay that bill), the actual flight miles/segments flown will count towards status, the flight can be upgraded with a handful of points, etc.

This example highlights the importance of knowing the redemption value of your points. In this example, a 50,000 mile ticket costs $730, so the value is 1.46 cents per mile. This is a horrible value and a good case of where using cash back would be better. However if you can get 3-4 cent/mile or mile, mileage or transferable currencies are better than cash back.

Also the United card has a 10k mile bonus for 25k of spending in a year.

You conveniently left out the new, unstated OBC cap which destroys your intended argument. The better answer is utilizing different methods for full value. I.E. MS on OBC to cap + other MS methods.

Actually, I inconveniently left it out. As I just posted in another thread, I wasn't aware that it was now capped until today! My life got super busy about a year ago and I stopped frequenting the forums and/or reading paper statements so missed the announcement of the change.

I just recently hit the month after my anniversary on my uncapped Ol' Blue. Actually, got caught unaware... as I hadn't been on the forums for a while and missed the announcement of the cap going in place. Didn't realize it was happening until I saw my most recent statement and came here to play catch-up.

For retrospective data, I'd been doing $30k to $40k a month for the past two years or so. Accordingly, I blew WAY through the cap last month which was actually "reward month two" for me before now realizing I was only earning 1% on the last $20k or so. Guess that's what happens when you take your eye off the ball. Oh well, in the grand scheme of things I did pretty well with it.

What's next?

A couple of notes...

- Staples offers $300 VGC now online with better return. Roughly, 33 cards, $270 fees or so, shipped to your door. If you jump on a promotion these stores often have, the fees can be wiped out for a portion at least by going to the store.
- if you have a good cycle/liquidation path, 50 or 100 cards is not intimidating. I liquidated 9 cards last night at a WM Kate, took me 9 minutes max. WM BP is 4/minute probably, PPMC -> Serve or VISA Buxx is from the couch, etc. Liquidating the equivalent of 60 cards isn't a barrier once you find your rhythm.
- I don't have one but would agree, OBC does sound like the bomb as the kids say up to its cap.

I agree, Staples 300 VGC is probably the easiest way to break even while MSing.

The $300 VGCs are certainly cheaper from a points per dollar standpoint than the $200 VGCs but neither are as economical as using your Ink to purchase a $500 VGC at a gas station, even with the lower category multiplier.

$200 VGC works out to $.0067 per point
$300 VGC works out to $.0058 per point
$500 VGC works out to $.0049 per point

The main down side is liquidation: The gas station VGCs are usually OVs which can't be easily loaded at WM and will require a larger volume of total liquidation for the same number of points earned.

The cost of liquidation also counts! If you can only liquidate 1 OV at a time (at a Family Dollar, for example), and driving there and back is 10 miles, or half a gallon, then that extra ~buck also counts, and raises your cost from $.0049 to $.0059 per point. It's also a heck of a lot easier driving to WM and liquidating $2500 at a time once a week or so!

I don't think this is entirely accurate. Even on the fastest kiosk that I've used, it takes a minute and a half per card. Further, if you're using $300 cards in 9 minutes, you'd have tripped the $2K limit. So add in waiting for the timer reset and the drive to walmart, it's more time consuming than you are making it out to be.

How is the gas station better? A 300 from staples is 1500pts. A 500 from a gas station is only 1000pts.
On top of that...the volume per month is more with 300's. let's say you load only one Serve a month. So that's a max of 10 500's which would be 10k pts. You could load 16 300's (with some left serve room left over) and end up with 24000 pts.

So how again are 500 at gas stations better?

Because....math.

The $300s from Staples cost $8.95
The $500s from gas station cost $4.95

308.95 X 5 = 1544.75. You earn 1544.75 UR points for $8.95 in cost. Total cost per point is $.0058
504.95 X 2 = 1009.90. You earn 1009.90 UR points for $4.95 in cost. Total cost per point is $.0049

yeah but math is hard

So you used two different numbers...you said both "4.95" and "5.95" in your math. 1009.9 points for 5.95 is actually .0059 per point ...not .0049. The only way you could do a 4.95 is if you bought vanillas.

So that would largely depend on what type of cards you are getting...if you get a vanilla you may be able to find that 4.95 price point you are talking about but they can't be loaded to BB. If you wanted to keep the comparison equal (as in if your gas station card was easily loadable like a staples 300 is) and get any other than vanilla then you are going to be paying 5.95...which is .0059 and a worse value.

So the choices are .0058/.0059 and load able anywhere....or .0049 and much harder to liquidate.

The main takeaway from this though is the importance that they are very similar. Why is this important you ask? Because last time I checked (and I could be wrong) but the 50k limit was available for each category. So you can max out 50k at office supply and do another 50k at gas stations with not much cost difference.

Typo...fixed it for you. Fat fingers be damned, the math is still correct.

OVs can be loaded to BB, just at 49.99 increments. More importantly, they can be loaded to Serve very easily at RA and FD.

True, but aren't Sunnies and Holiday GD from WM $4.94 or so? Those are loadable anywhere as well if Im not mistaken.l

One of the primary tenets of MS is that everything is local.

You prefer $300s being loaded to BB at Walmart. That is certainly a very viable course of action, and as long as it fits within your MS goals and is workable within your local area then have at it.

You asked how the GS $500s were better and I pointed out that they offer a lower cost per UR point. If you don't have a Serve or RAs or FDs in your area then this may not be a viable option for you. If you don't have grocery stores that accept OVs for very low cost MOs, then this may not be a viable option for you. It is best to pursue whatever works for you in your area and according to your goals.

Personally, I vary my acquisition and liquidation channels to meet my specific goals. I use a mix of all three (BB, Serve and MOs) because I have the ability to do so and choose to do so at the lowest possible cost (acquisition and liquidation) while maximizing the number of points and miles. Entirely up to your individual goals.

Assuming you can find a gas station to sell you Vanillas for 504.95 on credit card, not only are they more difficult to unload (on average, but yes, it's YMMV), the effort involved (time wise) has to be take into account. I would think the majority can't unload 3K worth of Vanillas into Money Orders in one sitting (for one thing, it's two different businesses you must go into per run..... the gas station, and then your MO place). And anyone trying to unload a Vanilla at Kate must not own a watch or have a job.

I can go into Walmart with two pocket full of Staples VGC's and my two BB's and walk around from cashier to cashier, department to department getting them to unload 2 (or 3/4 if I get a good vibe from them) at a time.

During off peak times, I can get in and out generating 18.5K UR (at a .0058 clip) in under 20 minutes, and definitely under 30 mins. And if you want to be picky, it takes me less than 60 seconds to order from staples in the comfort of my home. With the Vanillas, you don't pay as much per UR, but the time and effort has to be taken into account for the spread between .0049 and .0058. I use the gas station Vanillas very rarely as more of a top off if I ever get low on UR. And I suppose I need to be more vigilant in looking for them but I don't enjoy entering an actual gas station usually.

DeaconY,
When you load serve via RA and FD using OV, is it still $49.99 each load, or you can load $500 at a time?

oozze

You can load the full $500 vanillas to Serve at RA.

How scalable is Chase Ink 5x? Anyone here do about 5k staples gift cards monthly to reach the 50k annual limit? And actually get the 250k UR without Chase noticing?

I did about 45k in 1 year, mostly following deals for cash back and staples GCs and paying for fees for about 30% of my UR MS.

I am still able to get other points/miles for free plus additional monthly CB of about $5-600.

There could be times which demand quite an effort but still better than watching tv.

I'm pretty sure there are a few folks here who have multiple inks and max them out ($50K Staples VGC into 250K UR per Ink) on a yearly basis. They probably have been with chase for years with several banking accounts and have regular spend on them as well.... Would I rush out to get approved for my first chase product with the Ink (assuming you get approved which isn't likely) and put 52K on it in year one with 50K of it being Staples VGC, no. It is tempting to apply for my second ink and get the 60K sign up bonus though, staples aside. Don't want to draw more attention as the benefits of one ink are certainly nice.

Nobody considered the annual fee of 95$ from chase .. How you guys waiving that off ?

You're going to spend the fees on $200 and $300 cards and complain about $95?

If you are... it's more often than not waived after HUCA.

Given that the Ink frequently offers 60K UR sign up with AF waived year one, the AF is a piece of cake in the grand scheme of things with the office supply store IF you live near a friendly Wally, although they are less friendly around the holidays it seems like. Most people get the AF waived in year 2 anyhow with a 90 second call. But given I can generate 250K UR at .0058 currently with one or two visits to Wally a month it's worth $95 per year easily. Staples also does in store rebates every quarter with $20 Visa's on $300 worth of VGC purchases. The Ink is one of my only cards that offers good MS opportunities throughout the year(s) in addition to MS to get initial sign up bonus.

Not all annual fees are created equally and it depends on how much utility you're getting out of the card. But I've yet to read anyone say the Ink annual fee isn't worth it if you have a Wally near by.

Agreed.

I look at the annual fee as a sunk cost /cost of doing business. Even if you can't get the fee waived. When Staples offers the cash back offers it is often more than enough to offset the fee; especially if you have multiple addresses for rebate purposes.

FT is good for data points. Not methods. Any no fee or profitable methods posted will not exist soon after. Maxed out on signup bonuses? Try retention offers.