So, an IRS Special Agent just stopped by...
Jul 16, 2014, 11:44 am
#76
Join Date: May 2014
Location: BOS/DCA
Programs: Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 17
Being in the federal legal community, the investigative procedure of this IRS agent is pretty unusual. However, I have seen a few cases where an IRS agent will visit a residence or place of business described in the initial post in this section to see if the person will talk without counsel since if you bring someone downtown for questioning most savvy people will invoke their Miranda rights as soon as they get into the office. I am not saying this incident did or didn’t happen as described but if it did it raises tough questions about whether you should ever talk to the agent without counsel present. Maybe the IRS has different policies by region but normally if they get to the point of sending someone to speak to you, you are in trouble even if you are innocent. If you speak to the agent without counsel you then run a risk of accidently incriminating yourself.
Jul 16, 2014, 12:47 pm
#77
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: None
Posts: 135
We all make money by exploiting OPM (banks, processors, vendors, high-interest payers). Don't consider the effort of buying and liquidating as your expense/ labor. Using a 5% cashback card, purchase a $500 GC paying 2.95-5.95 in fee, liquidating it for $1 (about there), profiting ~ $18-$21. Tell me what gives you the entitlement? Free world dude. Live or Move on!
If that did not make sense to you - I am the looser.
Jul 16, 2014, 1:35 pm
#79
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Uranus
Posts: 333
As opposed to a shiny metal that possesses not significantly more in the way of tangible "value", outside of industrial use
Jul 16, 2014, 1:40 pm
#80
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Programs: Hilton Diamond
Posts: 38
Being in the federal legal community, the investigative procedure of this IRS agent is pretty unusual. However, I have seen a few cases where an IRS agent will visit a residence or place of business described in the initial post in this section to see if the person will talk without counsel since if you bring someone downtown for questioning most savvy people will invoke their Miranda rights as soon as they get into the office. I am not saying this incident did or didn’t happen as described but if it did it raises tough questions about whether you should ever talk to the agent without counsel present. Maybe the IRS has different policies by region but normally if they get to the point of sending someone to speak to you, you are in trouble even if you are innocent. If you speak to the agent without counsel you then run a risk of accidently incriminating yourself.
Once I learned it was only about the money order deposits, it really was a short coversation.
Jul 16, 2014, 2:10 pm
#81
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Posts: 1,139
I did later clarify they had stopped by when I was not home and left a business card. I did call my CPA to confirm what I should and should not say - his advice was just to find out what they were interested in and let them know I can follow up with answers to any of their questions.
Once I learned it was only about the money order deposits, it really was a short coversation.
Once I learned it was only about the money order deposits, it really was a short coversation.
The biggest concern most posters originally had about money order deposits was Structuring. Several posters have argued that Structuring does not apply to money order deposits. They may or may not be correct. I do not know because I find that area of law almost impossible to read. Sometimes it will reference any attempt to avoid reporting described in Title _______ or Chapter _______ by using any Instrument defined in Title __________, and it would seem almost impossible to try to determine if money orders are referenced anywhere in those massive other areas of law. And I have never read an article by an attorney that fully said yes or no to this question. I just don't know what the answer is.
When a person reads Structuring cases, it so often involves a visit from law enforcement where they keep asking "why did you choose to deposit this specific amount". So often the target says he or she did so because they heard that going over a certain amount triggers paperwork. Then the government has the target admitting to the crime.
I am not saying that anyone Structures, regardless of whether those rules apply to money orders purchased with prepaid cards or debit cards. Most posters choose the amount of money orders they purchase and deposit based on factors such as how many prepaid cards can be accepted at the cash register, and/or what their daily debit card limit is, without any regard to the paperwork that might be filed based on purchases or deposits.
But it is useful to know whether the questions went down that track, or whether they were just interested in the source of the money orders and the cash used to purchase them. So thanks again for posting your experience.
Jul 16, 2014, 2:16 pm
#82
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 168
Jul 17, 2014, 9:43 am
#84
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 355
I was never notified that my records had been subpoenaed or my assets frozen. First I found out was LE showed me some of the documents they had obtained and asked me to answer questions they had.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:03 am
#85
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 78
The biggest concern most posters originally had about MO deposits was Structuring. Several posters have argued that Structuring does not apply to MO deposits. They may or may not be correct....
When a person reads Structuring cases, it so often involves a visit from law enforcement where they keep asking "why did you choose to deposit this specific amount". So often the target says he or she did so because they heard that going over a certain amount triggers paperwork. Then the government has the target admitting to the crime. ....
I am guessing that it would be considered structuring if the MOs were purchased with cash, but not otherwise. This is the best guess from a stranger online, not a lawyer. Either way I see no benefit to intentionally trying to avoid paperwork. It's for sure legal and less hassle.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:46 am
#86
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,688
I'm 100% certain than none of those who MS would like a visit from any of the LEAs and only when that happens will it hit them that these visits are not just fabricated to scare others. Meanwhile, we can all chill and relax, BigB got our backs protected :snort:
Jul 17, 2014, 8:58 pm
#89
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: MCI
Posts: 88
There has been a great deal of speculation here that manufactured spending with money orders is not illegal. Personally, I have not tried this method and I am not inclined to try it. Since it appears several here have experience with money laundering laws, has anyone considered this?
31 USC 2354(a)(1) Provides Criminal Penalties for Structuring transactions to avoid reporting requirements in several other sections of federal law. One of those reporting requirements is for money orders described in 31 USC 5325(a)(2), 5325(a)(2) seems to require ID for a transaction or series of transactions for money orders greater than 3k. There are threads here regarding when and where to purchase money orders and when ID is taken. Many here purchase far more than $3k in Money Orders regularly.
It seems plausible from a law enforcement point of view that reporting requirements are being evaded in the context of MS techniques.
Anyone with more knowledge than I care to comment?
31 USC 2354(a)(1) Provides Criminal Penalties for Structuring transactions to avoid reporting requirements in several other sections of federal law. One of those reporting requirements is for money orders described in 31 USC 5325(a)(2), 5325(a)(2) seems to require ID for a transaction or series of transactions for money orders greater than 3k. There are threads here regarding when and where to purchase money orders and when ID is taken. Many here purchase far more than $3k in Money Orders regularly.
It seems plausible from a law enforcement point of view that reporting requirements are being evaded in the context of MS techniques.
Anyone with more knowledge than I care to comment?
Last edited by monkeywrencher; Jul 17, 2014 at 9:00 pm Reason: Typo
Jul 17, 2014, 9:04 pm
#90
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5
I heard that the IRS is not actually a government agency, just a private corporation that acts as a government contractor. Is there any truth to this? If so, does this IRS special agent have any authority to investigate crimes or make arrests?