Suspicious Activity Reports to the IRS when buying or depositing money orders.
Jul 4, 2017, 2:23 pm
#1366
Join Date: Nov 2015
Programs: DL, Marriott & IHG Platty; HH Diamonte
Posts: 861
I made a mistake. When they asked, I was a bit out of it, so I said the first thing in my mind. The guy took the cards right out of my hand.
Jeez guys, be a little supportive. I'm not rolling in thousands of dollars here, I just did one.
One person isn't going to ruin it.
Jeez guys, be a little supportive. I'm not rolling in thousands of dollars here, I just did one.
One person isn't going to ruin it.
Happy 4th of July. Please don't discuss MSing and if there is ever a problem, just pull out your regular debit card and then move on to the next opportunity.
Jul 5, 2017, 7:50 pm
#1367
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: MGM
Programs: United Silver, PC Plat/Amb, HH Dmnd
Posts: 805
Ah, Andy2, my doppelganger and nemesis! If I understand your counterfactual correctly, you are suggesting that SARs on money order deposits are justifiable because a smurfer/structurer could be avoiding cash deposits by buying money orders with cash. BUT MSBs are also required to submit bothCTRs and SARs. So, unless our hypothetical crook is really spreading around his cash, he's going to get dinged with either a CTR or SAR somewhere. And, at bottom, an MSer just doesn't (or shouldn't) have the same level of concern about reporting requirements as does a money launderer.
And, of course, my advice was to avoid the suspicious part of the SAR. As you know, my belief is that no bank can ever properly submit a CTR on a traditional MSer. And because only CTRs can be structured around, there is no concern about structuring in MSing. So, why bother with complex schemes and depositing arrangements that simply make you look suspicious? As for the risk posed by SARs, take a look sometime at a year to year increase in SAR filings. Lots of signal, little data.
All this said, I completely agree that your (admittedly conservative) method virtually eliminates meaningful risk. At worst, you could get shut down by a credit issuer, not investigated by the Feds. But I believe that the be-above-board-never-act-furtive-because-you're-not-doing-anything-wrong approach is also a legitimate one.
Andyandy
And, of course, my advice was to avoid the suspicious part of the SAR. As you know, my belief is that no bank can ever properly submit a CTR on a traditional MSer. And because only CTRs can be structured around, there is no concern about structuring in MSing. So, why bother with complex schemes and depositing arrangements that simply make you look suspicious? As for the risk posed by SARs, take a look sometime at a year to year increase in SAR filings. Lots of signal, little data.
All this said, I completely agree that your (admittedly conservative) method virtually eliminates meaningful risk. At worst, you could get shut down by a credit issuer, not investigated by the Feds. But I believe that the be-above-board-never-act-furtive-because-you're-not-doing-anything-wrong approach is also a legitimate one.
Andyandy
But wouldn't you concede that if a customer who was not known by the bank to be in "cash business" continuously deposited $4-$5 K in cash every few days, he would get SARs filed? If the solution was for him to continuously purchase money orders with 1K in cash on a continuous basis, it would be a very simple way for him to avoid SARs from the bank as a result of depositing 4-5k of cash on a continuous basis (although the money order seller should be doing SARs). But the bank is instructed to consider filing SARs for significant money order deposits in the various non-authoritative guidance, presumably because the government recognizes that money orders are available for purchase in most cities at locations every few blocks. So the bank is made a significant penalty target for failing to file SARs for money order deposits, as they are the perceived as the easiest target to keep folks from being able to successfully avoid CTRs (and SARs) from doing a cash - money order - deposit of money order scheme to get cash in the banking system. Sure the bank can be informed that the money orders were purchased with prepaid cards that were purchased with credit cards for reward points / cash back. But it is impossible for the bank to truly verify this just by looking at the money order. So we see a lot of bank account closures for money order deposits, which are likely accompanied by the filing of SARs.
I know I am still in the minority on this, but I prefer to mail each money order in a separate envelope to the credit card company used for MSing. While it might increase the chance of a credit card closure since it lays out the MS activity, it also seems to minimize the chance of SARs. There is nothing suspicious. I used the credit card to buy money orders (via prepaid debit cards) and I used the money orders to pay the credit card bills. No rational reason for a SAR to be filed since there is nothing suspicious.
It also minimizes the hassles upon an IRS audit. The standard technique for IRS audits of individual returns is for the agent to gain an understanding of all bank deposits. It would be a pain to take them through the process, including substantiation, of possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars of bank deposits over a possible three year period. It is rare, unless they are conducting a lifestyle analysis, for an IRS agent to request credit card statements.
The difference between the two approaches is really just stamps and completing an envelope. Of course, MSing has declined in profitability over the years, so it is largely a theoretical discussion now.
I know I am still in the minority on this, but I prefer to mail each money order in a separate envelope to the credit card company used for MSing. While it might increase the chance of a credit card closure since it lays out the MS activity, it also seems to minimize the chance of SARs. There is nothing suspicious. I used the credit card to buy money orders (via prepaid debit cards) and I used the money orders to pay the credit card bills. No rational reason for a SAR to be filed since there is nothing suspicious.
It also minimizes the hassles upon an IRS audit. The standard technique for IRS audits of individual returns is for the agent to gain an understanding of all bank deposits. It would be a pain to take them through the process, including substantiation, of possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars of bank deposits over a possible three year period. It is rare, unless they are conducting a lifestyle analysis, for an IRS agent to request credit card statements.
The difference between the two approaches is really just stamps and completing an envelope. Of course, MSing has declined in profitability over the years, so it is largely a theoretical discussion now.
Last edited by andyandy; Jul 5, 2017 at 9:22 pm
Jul 5, 2017, 7:54 pm
#1368
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: MGM
Programs: United Silver, PC Plat/Amb, HH Dmnd
Posts: 805
Don't freak out dude. Your risk is virtually nil. BUT! In future, don't ever switch lines. If someone says no, just leave and go somewhere else. When you switch lines you look like you're trying to get away with something. It's just not the same as HUACA.
Andyandy
Andyandy
What are the odds of me getting an SAR and what is the negative? I went to my local USPS and asked for a money order. I said I had two gift cards that I need to split it across. The first lady said she couldn't do it without a supervisor, so I went back in line and asked the other associate, who said he could do it, but perked up with I said gift card. He proceeded to grab my cards and make photo-copies and asked for my driver's license which he wrote down my name/number on it. He said that he'll proceed with my transaction now, but he needs a supervisor in the future to approve. He said there's some scams going on with gift cards. In order to not raise suspicion, I proceeded with everything like it was normal and didn't hesitate on anything. Only did 1 money order for $1,000 across two cards.
The gift cards were purchased with a new AMEX of mine, I used the MO to MS and deposited it to my bank account.
So now I'm freaking out a bit about having an SAR. I decided to keep the original receipts with the boxes to show my credit card (in my name).
The gift cards were purchased with a new AMEX of mine, I used the MO to MS and deposited it to my bank account.
So now I'm freaking out a bit about having an SAR. I decided to keep the original receipts with the boxes to show my credit card (in my name).
Jul 14, 2017, 10:32 am
#1369
Join Date: Apr 2014
Programs: Hilton - Diamond, IHG - Spire Amb
Posts: 901
For $1K MO, the odds of SAR filed against you won't be too high, but that is just conjecture on my part.
since you're a noobie, I suggest you go over the new to manufacturer spending thread, read also the past years, there's a lot of information there useful for newbies that you will learn from.
To give you some of the basics:
1. NEVER, ever say you're paying with a GC; when asked, say you're paying with Visa or Mastercard DEBIT. If, by chance they ask to see the card, do NOT switch to a real bank DC to show, the odds that they'll notice is very high and you'll likely be busted and BANNED. Best to show them what you got and if they say it's a GC and it's not allowed, say you didn't know and leave quietly.
2. Best NOT to engage with power tripping personnel if they make their own rules. Just leave quietly and try again when there's a different person working. You do NOT burn bridges with this method but if you make a scene, consider that location toast!
3. Amex prepaids with PIN and GCs do NOT work like debit cards that require a PIN. You can't use them to buy MOs anywhere EXCEPT some rare stores that accept credit card payments for MOs. They are always processed as credit, never debit.
There's a ton of info you need to learn as you go along. Hopefully, you don't burn your bridges too soon when you commit huge mistakes. It's best for you to read a lot and know the ropes, then do small trial purchases ($1K is a huge amount to try for newbies)especially when buying MOs because it's easy to wiggle out of sticky situations with small amounts compared to buying $1K at once doing split transactions where everything can go wrong. IMO, split transactions are reserved for those who have a lot more experience with MS and know a lot of back up methods.
Good luck and Happy 4th!
since you're a noobie, I suggest you go over the new to manufacturer spending thread, read also the past years, there's a lot of information there useful for newbies that you will learn from.
To give you some of the basics:
1. NEVER, ever say you're paying with a GC; when asked, say you're paying with Visa or Mastercard DEBIT. If, by chance they ask to see the card, do NOT switch to a real bank DC to show, the odds that they'll notice is very high and you'll likely be busted and BANNED. Best to show them what you got and if they say it's a GC and it's not allowed, say you didn't know and leave quietly.
2. Best NOT to engage with power tripping personnel if they make their own rules. Just leave quietly and try again when there's a different person working. You do NOT burn bridges with this method but if you make a scene, consider that location toast!
3. Amex prepaids with PIN and GCs do NOT work like debit cards that require a PIN. You can't use them to buy MOs anywhere EXCEPT some rare stores that accept credit card payments for MOs. They are always processed as credit, never debit.
There's a ton of info you need to learn as you go along. Hopefully, you don't burn your bridges too soon when you commit huge mistakes. It's best for you to read a lot and know the ropes, then do small trial purchases ($1K is a huge amount to try for newbies)especially when buying MOs because it's easy to wiggle out of sticky situations with small amounts compared to buying $1K at once doing split transactions where everything can go wrong. IMO, split transactions are reserved for those who have a lot more experience with MS and know a lot of back up methods.
Good luck and Happy 4th!
I successfully salvage one of my two WM MO locations when a new clerk started power tripping saying that it was illegal to buy more thank 2k in MO. I escalated to a supervisor who informed the clerk she was wrong, sell me the MO and from then on, no issues. Now admittedly I live in a MS oasis in the midwest and there are a few other factors perhaps at play. But if you are the meek one to back down when someone spouts a policy that is made up, you loose that clerk forever as an option. If I want to do 8k in MO at my WM, I need it to survive with current policies without someone making up something. What works for me may not be so successful if you have a lot of local competition and volume come through.
Jul 15, 2017, 7:39 am
#1370
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 523
While I agree with Mamibear in general, there can be times where it is long term beneficial to escalate and not meekly bow out.
I successfully salvage one of my two WM MO locations when a new clerk started power tripping saying that it was illegal to buy more thank 2k in MO. I escalated to a supervisor who informed the clerk she was wrong, sell me the MO and from then on, no issues. Now admittedly I live in a MS oasis in the midwest and there are a few other factors perhaps at play. But if you are the meek one to back down when someone spouts a policy that is made up, you loose that clerk forever as an option. If I want to do 8k in MO at my WM, I need it to survive with current policies without someone making up something. What works for me may not be so successful if you have a lot of local competition and volume come through.
I successfully salvage one of my two WM MO locations when a new clerk started power tripping saying that it was illegal to buy more thank 2k in MO. I escalated to a supervisor who informed the clerk she was wrong, sell me the MO and from then on, no issues. Now admittedly I live in a MS oasis in the midwest and there are a few other factors perhaps at play. But if you are the meek one to back down when someone spouts a policy that is made up, you loose that clerk forever as an option. If I want to do 8k in MO at my WM, I need it to survive with current policies without someone making up something. What works for me may not be so successful if you have a lot of local competition and volume come through.
The emphasis is on a csr that risks shutting you down. There are many times when it's better to walk away without confrontation.
Jul 17, 2017, 9:39 am
#1372
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 90
2. other people may have that store as their best store until u ruin it for everyone.
3. Win the war not every battle.
Jul 17, 2017, 9:45 am
#1373
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,207
If its a rogue CSR you could ruin the entire location by escalating. If an entire store is unfriendly escalating isn't going to help anyway and just wastes time and probably marks you so you cant even eek out the littlest of ms without hassle the next time you come.
Jul 17, 2017, 11:13 am
#1374
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Cincinnati
Programs: AA, Hyatt
Posts: 371
if it is an entirely unfriendly store, escalating COULD get you somewhere in that they allow you to purchase MOs. Its how I made one of my stores ultra-friendly. If they dont allow you to buy MOs and you escalate and nothing changes, you are just out some time because nothing else changed.
Say Nothing: Not Allowed
Say Something: Either Not Allowed or Allowed
It obviously takes a specific tact and personality, but it isn't that hard to figure out. You guys just take the wrong approach to life I guess.
Say Nothing: Not Allowed
Say Something: Either Not Allowed or Allowed
It obviously takes a specific tact and personality, but it isn't that hard to figure out. You guys just take the wrong approach to life I guess.
Jul 17, 2017, 11:29 am
#1375
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 90
if it is an entirely unfriendly store, escalating COULD get you somewhere in that they allow you to purchase MOs. Its how I made one of my stores ultra-friendly. If they dont allow you to buy MOs and you escalate and nothing changes, you are just out some time because nothing else changed.
Say Nothing: Not Allowed
Say Something: Either Not Allowed or Allowed
It obviously takes a specific tact and personality, but it isn't that hard to figure out. You guys just take the wrong approach to life I guess.
Say Nothing: Not Allowed
Say Something: Either Not Allowed or Allowed
It obviously takes a specific tact and personality, but it isn't that hard to figure out. You guys just take the wrong approach to life I guess.
Jul 17, 2017, 12:38 pm
#1377
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 910
I think at one of my go to WMs I got a prick of a csr fired. I didn't intend to, neither did I intend to escalate with his management. He really seemed to go above and beyond to just make my MOs trips difficult, a manager happened to be there (I didn't notice, she wasn't wearing anything distinctive) and I happen to vent after the nth time of this csr doing the same, basically telling them I've done this many times before and he seems to do this on purpose, only him. My venting in this this case--esp me telling them I've done this several times before--was definitely not on par with my typical 'fly under the radar' behavior but this dude really got to me and trying to avoid his schedule also inconvenienced me.
This csr no longer works there, my MO trips haven't changed. It is possible he quit or got fired for other reasons but it did coincide with this transaction and my negative WM review of it. He def seemed like the ahole type, but I still felt sorry thinking I might have contributed to his firing. On the flip side, hopefully he will learn to act more professionally at his next job.
This csr no longer works there, my MO trips haven't changed. It is possible he quit or got fired for other reasons but it did coincide with this transaction and my negative WM review of it. He def seemed like the ahole type, but I still felt sorry thinking I might have contributed to his firing. On the flip side, hopefully he will learn to act more professionally at his next job.
Jul 18, 2017, 8:13 am
#1378
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 523
Isn't "not allowed" in option two the same as saying nothing? It's okay to say something, but be aware of the risk of losing a location. I was banned from a location after saying something. Based on the volume I was doing there, I thought it might lead to a ban, but I didn't feel like eating a second 500 at this location.
Jul 18, 2017, 8:59 am
#1379
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Cincinnati
Programs: AA, Hyatt
Posts: 371
Isn't "not allowed" in option two the same as saying nothing? It's okay to say something, but be aware of the risk of losing a location. I was banned from a location after saying something. Based on the volume I was doing there, I thought it might lead to a ban, but I didn't feel like eating a second 500 at this location.
Jul 18, 2017, 7:50 pm
#1380
Join Date: Nov 2015
Programs: DL, Marriott & IHG Platty; HH Diamonte
Posts: 861
In terms of saying something, i agree that sometimes you need to stand up for the rules you know are right.
With that being said, I don't peeps should be mentioning MSing or trying to explain it to a walmart cashier. All that succeeds in doing is bringing negative attention to the situation.
With that being said, I don't peeps should be mentioning MSing or trying to explain it to a walmart cashier. All that succeeds in doing is bringing negative attention to the situation.