Class of Service: ‘double’ downgrade. What are my options?
May 16, 2019, 2:57 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: BER
Programs: BAEC GGL/GfL, Lufthansa SEN, Hilton Diamond, misc other stuff
Posts: 1,374
Class of Service: ‘double’ downgrade. What are my options?
Hi,
I booked KIX-KUL as First Class award on the A350. In the meantime it was downgraded to the Business Suite. We (two pax) were OK with this even though we were never notified. This morning I woke up to an Expertflyer alert (and a call by MH) that my plane got downgraded from the A350 to an A330.
So we went from First to Business Suite to Business.
I asked the agent who called me to check if she can reroute us OSA-NRT-TYO with the MH A350 on the second segment. Departure time would be early morning so I also asked (although I didn’t expect it to happen) for KIX-BKK on TG First on the A380 followed by a TG Business segment.
the agent confirmed that both options showed up and that she would call me back. I could see the NRT-KUL flight show up on my reservation shortly after.
A couple hours later she called me and told me that the Osaka station manager said that due to this being a BA award they will not reroute on another airline (not even to TYO). We are now confirmed in plain Business on the A330.
What are our options?
I asked the agent to have the station manager give me a call or at least give me their reason in writing so that I can claim some miles back from BA. No answer for the past 8+ hours.
The conditions of carriage don’t contain anything about awards. Esp not third party awards.
I booked KIX-KUL as First Class award on the A350. In the meantime it was downgraded to the Business Suite. We (two pax) were OK with this even though we were never notified. This morning I woke up to an Expertflyer alert (and a call by MH) that my plane got downgraded from the A350 to an A330.
So we went from First to Business Suite to Business.
I asked the agent who called me to check if she can reroute us OSA-NRT-TYO with the MH A350 on the second segment. Departure time would be early morning so I also asked (although I didn’t expect it to happen) for KIX-BKK on TG First on the A380 followed by a TG Business segment.
the agent confirmed that both options showed up and that she would call me back. I could see the NRT-KUL flight show up on my reservation shortly after.
A couple hours later she called me and told me that the Osaka station manager said that due to this being a BA award they will not reroute on another airline (not even to TYO). We are now confirmed in plain Business on the A330.
What are our options?
I asked the agent to have the station manager give me a call or at least give me their reason in writing so that I can claim some miles back from BA. No answer for the past 8+ hours.
The conditions of carriage don’t contain anything about awards. Esp not third party awards.
May 16, 2019, 4:59 am
#3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: UK
Programs: Etihad Gold, Qatar Gold, flying Blue, Falcon, Lufthansa, Eva
Posts: 1,428
the down grade from First to business suite is simply a name change same seat and everything
the downgrade to ordinary business means less room, a slightly worse champagne and no caviar and sharing the cabin with more
Unfortunately changing the plane is an occupational hazard of course how they deal with the consequences is the issue and if you are British then I wonder what the position would be legally with BA although no doubt they have made sure the customer has no rights
the downgrade to ordinary business means less room, a slightly worse champagne and no caviar and sharing the cabin with more
Unfortunately changing the plane is an occupational hazard of course how they deal with the consequences is the issue and if you are British then I wonder what the position would be legally with BA although no doubt they have made sure the customer has no rights
May 16, 2019, 7:57 am
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: 1A
Programs: Elite Diamond Purple Dot Gold Silver Titanium for life
Posts: 1,822
BA will want to know because it will save them money as they only want to pay MH for J instead of F.
You could demand the Avios difference from F->J from BA.
100% it's a double downgrade. I believe MH were compensating passengers who had booked in F, and received "business suites".
It has a significant effect as you don't receive F lounge access in OW lounges, your mileage accrual changes (on paid tix) etc.
You could demand the Avios difference from F->J from BA.
100% it's a double downgrade. I believe MH were compensating passengers who had booked in F, and received "business suites".
It has a significant effect as you don't receive F lounge access in OW lounges, your mileage accrual changes (on paid tix) etc.
May 16, 2019, 10:43 am
#5
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The KUL city
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat, TK Elite+
Posts: 2,663
If you are re-booked in J cabin and MH refuse to budge, send BA your BP and request the difference in Avios refunded.
Not exactly a double downgrade. Cabin wise, it's a single cabin downgrade. Business Suite for all intent and purposes is First other than lounge access (and that's only at NRT and seasonal SYD flight). BS pax still gets FCL at KUL and there are no FCL at KIX (in OP's case).
Not exactly a double downgrade. Cabin wise, it's a single cabin downgrade. Business Suite for all intent and purposes is First other than lounge access (and that's only at NRT and seasonal SYD flight). BS pax still gets FCL at KUL and there are no FCL at KIX (in OP's case).
May 16, 2019, 10:48 am
#6
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: CGK
Posts: 2,375
the down grade from First to business suite is simply a name change same seat and everything
the downgrade to ordinary business means less room, a slightly worse champagne and no caviar and sharing the cabin with more
Unfortunately changing the plane is an occupational hazard of course how they deal with the consequences is the issue and if you are British then I wonder what the position would be legally with BA although no doubt they have made sure the customer has no rights
the downgrade to ordinary business means less room, a slightly worse champagne and no caviar and sharing the cabin with more
Unfortunately changing the plane is an occupational hazard of course how they deal with the consequences is the issue and if you are British then I wonder what the position would be legally with BA although no doubt they have made sure the customer has no rights
I'd say that the champagne is significantly worse though. Not sure what they serve on MH J these days (last I flew, they had a Bruno Paillard Brut and Rose, which were honestly decent), but definitely much worse than the Comtes de Champagne 2007 or whatever vintage they are serving in F now.
Service can also be worse honestly, and on a full flight, good luck getting any more satay :P
May 16, 2019, 1:09 pm
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: 1A
Programs: Elite Diamond Purple Dot Gold Silver Titanium for life
Posts: 1,822
If you are re-booked in J cabin and MH refuse to budge, send BA your BP and request the difference in Avios refunded.
Not exactly a double downgrade. Cabin wise, it's a single cabin downgrade. Business Suite for all intent and purposes is First other than lounge access (and that's only at NRT and seasonal SYD flight). BS pax still gets FCL at KUL and there are no FCL at KIX (in OP's case).
Not exactly a double downgrade. Cabin wise, it's a single cabin downgrade. Business Suite for all intent and purposes is First other than lounge access (and that's only at NRT and seasonal SYD flight). BS pax still gets FCL at KUL and there are no FCL at KIX (in OP's case).
No matter how hard MH spin it - it's not first class. It's a business plus.
May 16, 2019, 1:42 pm
#8
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: CGK
Posts: 2,375
Personally, in my opinion, I'd say MH's product is really quite solid. The service I've been getting is polished and warm, the food was great, the amenities were first class standard, and the seat isn't as bad as people say it is. In fact the seat was very comfortable (apart from being slightly narrow), but is defo better than any J seat out there (yes, I would prefer MH over Qsuite).
J products people often laud, Qatar's Qsuite particularly, I would say, is way too overrated. The door is nice yes, but it's still a Business product. There's a cubby hole in the seat, the Champagne and wines as of late has been dreadful, the crew stressed (and thus the food is often dry and overheated, and they forget things), the Pyjamas are scratchy and rather poor in quality. I suppose the only thing for me, Qsuite excels in, is their non-alcoholic beverage choice (v. MH's horrible "juices" and the comparatively uninspiring Wau Emas) and their IFE. Don't get me started with Al Mourjan.
MH Business Suite/First has in my opinion, great food, great service (unlike MH J, bah!), great Champagne, a solid and functional F lounge in KUL (apart from their showers), great amenities, etc.
Given the option, I would take MH F or BA F for that matter any day over Qsuite.
May 16, 2019, 2:39 pm
#9
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The KUL city
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat, TK Elite+
Posts: 2,663
That I'd agree. Probably one of my best cabin crew service was on my MH F flight. The seat while isn't bad, I just wish it's a tad longer. My toes are touching the bulkhead/board when I am sleeping straight (I am 1.86m).
May 16, 2019, 2:42 pm
#10
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: BER
Programs: BAEC GGL/GfL, Lufthansa SEN, Hilton Diamond, misc other stuff
Posts: 1,374
Thanks for all the feedback. I got no feedback from MH so far but found the MALAYSIAN AVIATION CONSUMER PROTECTION CODE 2016 online. It clearly states that no difference should be made between cash and redemption bookings.
Regarding the Avios difference: I only paid C miles for this F segment thanks to the BA rules. But I booked the trip in order to enjoy the MH A350 and would have booked something else (CX F) if it wasn’t available.
I guess I’ll ask the station manager to point out the section his answer is based on in the conditions of carriage. They should have a copy at the airport. I don’t want him to loose face but on the other hand the treatment so far was pretty terrible. In addition the NLML request disappeared from the reservation (not to mention the selected book the cook options) and I cannot check in my +1.
Regarding the Avios difference: I only paid C miles for this F segment thanks to the BA rules. But I booked the trip in order to enjoy the MH A350 and would have booked something else (CX F) if it wasn’t available.
I guess I’ll ask the station manager to point out the section his answer is based on in the conditions of carriage. They should have a copy at the airport. I don’t want him to loose face but on the other hand the treatment so far was pretty terrible. In addition the NLML request disappeared from the reservation (not to mention the selected book the cook options) and I cannot check in my +1.
May 16, 2019, 2:48 pm
#11
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The KUL city
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat, TK Elite+
Posts: 2,663
If it's not too late and if there are seats available, you should be able to just cancel your ticket (unless its within 24 hours of departure) and purchase a new one.
May 16, 2019, 6:56 pm
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: BER
Programs: BAEC GGL/GfL, Lufthansa SEN, Hilton Diamond, misc other stuff
Posts: 1,374
May 16, 2019, 7:06 pm
#13
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: BER
Programs: BAEC GGL/GfL, Lufthansa SEN, Hilton Diamond, misc other stuff
Posts: 1,374
We are sitting in the TG lounge at KIX now.
We arrived at the MH check in where a handling agent was checking us in. They informed us that there was a downgrade and that we could get 25% off our next trip (no promo fares, base fare only, .... not worth anything). I asked to speak to the station manager and after a ten minutes he showed up to consult with the agents. He then turned to us and explained the issue from his point of view: downgrade from Business Suite to Business. Same cabin. No rebooking.
I countered with ‘but we booked and paid for First Class’ which he quickly acknowledged and then just checked for seats on the Thai flight. He also checked whether we already checked in luggage. I knew not to do it before but this was a clear sign that he was willing to rebook. I told him that I booked an award and not a cash ticket but he reassured that this is not a problem. We needed to wait for the TYO office to open at 9AM for them to rebook. While we had breakfast at a mediocre landslide restaurant I saw the TG availability drop by two indicating that we’ve been rebooked.
We were asked to be back at the MH counter by 9:15 or 9:30 (for a 9:55 MH departure) and figured that worst case we might run late and he won’t be able to get us on MH no matter what. But by 9:20 we were anxiously waiting at the counter and a check in agent led us to the TG desk to check in. I would have loved to thank the station manager but he already left.
tl;dr worked out well and we get some decent Miles&More miles out of this as well.
We arrived at the MH check in where a handling agent was checking us in. They informed us that there was a downgrade and that we could get 25% off our next trip (no promo fares, base fare only, .... not worth anything). I asked to speak to the station manager and after a ten minutes he showed up to consult with the agents. He then turned to us and explained the issue from his point of view: downgrade from Business Suite to Business. Same cabin. No rebooking.
I countered with ‘but we booked and paid for First Class’ which he quickly acknowledged and then just checked for seats on the Thai flight. He also checked whether we already checked in luggage. I knew not to do it before but this was a clear sign that he was willing to rebook. I told him that I booked an award and not a cash ticket but he reassured that this is not a problem. We needed to wait for the TYO office to open at 9AM for them to rebook. While we had breakfast at a mediocre landslide restaurant I saw the TG availability drop by two indicating that we’ve been rebooked.
We were asked to be back at the MH counter by 9:15 or 9:30 (for a 9:55 MH departure) and figured that worst case we might run late and he won’t be able to get us on MH no matter what. But by 9:20 we were anxiously waiting at the counter and a check in agent led us to the TG desk to check in. I would have loved to thank the station manager but he already left.
tl;dr worked out well and we get some decent Miles&More miles out of this as well.
May 17, 2019, 3:58 am
#14
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: Some
Posts: 5,251
What exactly, if I may ask, makes MH's product "business plus" as opposed to first class?
Personally, in my opinion, I'd say MH's product is really quite solid. The service I've been getting is polished and warm, the food was great, the amenities were first class standard, and the seat isn't as bad as people say it is. In fact the seat was very comfortable (apart from being slightly narrow), but is defo better than any J seat out there (yes, I would prefer MH over Qsuite).
J products people often laud, Qatar's Qsuite particularly, I would say, is way too overrated. The door is nice yes, but it's still a Business product. There's a cubby hole in the seat, the Champagne and wines as of late has been dreadful, the crew stressed (and thus the food is often dry and overheated, and they forget things), the Pyjamas are scratchy and rather poor in quality. I suppose the only thing for me, Qsuite excels in, is their non-alcoholic beverage choice (v. MH's horrible "juices" and the comparatively uninspiring Wau Emas) and their IFE. Don't get me started with Al Mourjan.
MH Business Suite/First has in my opinion, great food, great service (unlike MH J, bah!), great Champagne, a solid and functional F lounge in KUL (apart from their showers), great amenities, etc.
Given the option, I would take MH F or BA F for that matter any day over Qsuite.
Personally, in my opinion, I'd say MH's product is really quite solid. The service I've been getting is polished and warm, the food was great, the amenities were first class standard, and the seat isn't as bad as people say it is. In fact the seat was very comfortable (apart from being slightly narrow), but is defo better than any J seat out there (yes, I would prefer MH over Qsuite).
J products people often laud, Qatar's Qsuite particularly, I would say, is way too overrated. The door is nice yes, but it's still a Business product. There's a cubby hole in the seat, the Champagne and wines as of late has been dreadful, the crew stressed (and thus the food is often dry and overheated, and they forget things), the Pyjamas are scratchy and rather poor in quality. I suppose the only thing for me, Qsuite excels in, is their non-alcoholic beverage choice (v. MH's horrible "juices" and the comparatively uninspiring Wau Emas) and their IFE. Don't get me started with Al Mourjan.
MH Business Suite/First has in my opinion, great food, great service (unlike MH J, bah!), great Champagne, a solid and functional F lounge in KUL (apart from their showers), great amenities, etc.
Given the option, I would take MH F or BA F for that matter any day over Qsuite.
MH 'Business Suites' is still a completely different type of travel to Qsuites, where as mentioned the service and F&B offering is still very much J class despite people who don't fly it frequently enough to see the real product thinking otherwise. Don't get me wrong, it's potentially the best J class hard product in existence, but it's J class soft product with nice touches, unlike MH 'Business Suites'.
May 17, 2019, 4:20 am
#15
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: UK
Programs: Etihad Gold, Qatar Gold, flying Blue, Falcon, Lufthansa, Eva
Posts: 1,428
We are sitting in the TG lounge at KIX now.
We arrived at the MH check in where a handling agent was checking us in. They informed us that there was a downgrade and that we could get 25% off our next trip (no promo fares, base fare only, .... not worth anything). I asked to speak to the station manager and after a ten minutes he showed up to consult with the agents. He then turned to us and explained the issue from his point of view: downgrade from Business Suite to Business. Same cabin. No rebooking.
I countered with ‘but we booked and paid for First Class’ which he quickly acknowledged and then just checked for seats on the Thai flight. He also checked whether we already checked in luggage. I knew not to do it before but this was a clear sign that he was willing to rebook. I told him that I booked an award and not a cash ticket but he reassured that this is not a problem. We needed to wait for the TYO office to open at 9AM for them to rebook. While we had breakfast at a mediocre landslide restaurant I saw the TG availability drop by two indicating that we’ve been rebooked.
We were asked to be back at the MH counter by 9:15 or 9:30 (for a 9:55 MH departure) and figured that worst case we might run late and he won’t be able to get us on MH no matter what. But by 9:20 we were anxiously waiting at the counter and a check in agent led us to the TG desk to check in. I would have loved to thank the station manager but he already left.
tl;dr worked out well and we get some decent Miles&More miles out of this as well.
We arrived at the MH check in where a handling agent was checking us in. They informed us that there was a downgrade and that we could get 25% off our next trip (no promo fares, base fare only, .... not worth anything). I asked to speak to the station manager and after a ten minutes he showed up to consult with the agents. He then turned to us and explained the issue from his point of view: downgrade from Business Suite to Business. Same cabin. No rebooking.
I countered with ‘but we booked and paid for First Class’ which he quickly acknowledged and then just checked for seats on the Thai flight. He also checked whether we already checked in luggage. I knew not to do it before but this was a clear sign that he was willing to rebook. I told him that I booked an award and not a cash ticket but he reassured that this is not a problem. We needed to wait for the TYO office to open at 9AM for them to rebook. While we had breakfast at a mediocre landslide restaurant I saw the TG availability drop by two indicating that we’ve been rebooked.
We were asked to be back at the MH counter by 9:15 or 9:30 (for a 9:55 MH departure) and figured that worst case we might run late and he won’t be able to get us on MH no matter what. But by 9:20 we were anxiously waiting at the counter and a check in agent led us to the TG desk to check in. I would have loved to thank the station manager but he already left.
tl;dr worked out well and we get some decent Miles&More miles out of this as well.