Jul 17, 2014, 9:40 am
Last edit by: NewbieRunner
WELCOME, MODERATOR GUIDELINES and SUMMARY
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with the earlier MH370 thread, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
FT MH 017 / Other Asian, Australian, and South Pacific Forum Moderation Team:
ABroadAbroad
cblaisd
JDiver
NewbieRunner
for the MH 17 Moderation Team
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note.
N. B. PLEASE SEE THE FAQ IN POST NO. 1.
OTHER FORA OF INTEREST:
This thread is about the loss of MH 17. In depth discussion of unrelated topics — geopolitics, passport theft, aviation security, airport security procedures, etc. — belongs in other fora. A few include:
OMNI/PR: Discussion of perspectives on politics and religion, including geopolitics and terrorism (requires 180 days on FT and 180 constructive posts prior to admission)
If you wish to discuss the politics and political implications related to this issue (or others), please do so in OMNI/PR; the MH 777 Crashes In Ukraine - Official In Kiev Claims Airliner Shot Down By Separatists thread is the place.
Travel Safety/Security: Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (including routing passenger aircraft over conflict areas).
Travel Safety/Security: Practical Travel Safety Issues for those discussing travel safety and security issues because they are planning a trip soon (including passport and nationality issues).
TravelBuzz: TravelBuzz for those wishing to discuss the relative safety of a specific aircraft - e.g. Boeing 777.
Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
This thread is about the loss of MH 17. In depth discussion of unrelated topics — geopolitics, passport theft, aviation security, airport security procedures, etc. — belongs in other fora. A few include:
OMNI/PR: Discussion of perspectives on politics and religion, including geopolitics and terrorism (requires 180 days on FT and 180 constructive posts prior to admission)
If you wish to discuss the politics and political implications related to this issue (or others), please do so in OMNI/PR; the MH 777 Crashes In Ukraine - Official In Kiev Claims Airliner Shot Down By Separatists thread is the place.
Travel Safety/Security: Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (including routing passenger aircraft over conflict areas).
Travel Safety/Security: Practical Travel Safety Issues for those discussing travel safety and security issues because they are planning a trip soon (including passport and nationality issues).
TravelBuzz: TravelBuzz for those wishing to discuss the relative safety of a specific aircraft - e.g. Boeing 777.
Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
Thank you.
Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)
Jul 18, 2014, 8:02 am
#706
Join Date: May 2001
Location: SYD
Programs: SK,BA,QF,AA, HH, IGH
Posts: 276
But each person can provide a single passport number at booking time even when (s)he has dual passports, (s)he selects one of the two. And marrying does not make difference: each person provides one passport number even in a couple of different nationalities, so that should be unambiguous.
Jul 18, 2014, 8:03 am
#707
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: VIE
Programs: SAS EBS / *A Silver, Hilton Diamond, Radisson VIP, IHG Platinum Ambassador
Posts: 3,770
I've just tried to make dummy booking on MH website and it doesn't ask for nationality, nor passport number.
Jul 18, 2014, 8:05 am
#708
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Between AMS and BRU
Posts: 8,852
Jul 18, 2014, 8:06 am
#709
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ORD
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 16,901
Jul 18, 2014, 8:08 am
#710
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Left
Programs: FT
Posts: 7,285
yes, but as my link posted earlier notes, as recently as yesterday, LH from DEL from FRA flew almost over the exact place of this tragedy. probably depends on winds/weather as to which waypoints?
Jul 18, 2014, 8:08 am
#711
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SYD
Programs: |QF Platinum|DL Platinum|HH Gold|ALL Silver|
Posts: 1,738
Jul 18, 2014, 8:12 am
#712
Join Date: May 2001
Location: SYD
Programs: SK,BA,QF,AA, HH, IGH
Posts: 276
I can't see Qantas having a great need to fly over the Ukraine anyways - since all their AU-UK flights are via DXB these days, and DXB-LHR seems to be over Iraq, Turkey, Romainia/Bulgaria Germany etc...unless there is some reason they would deviate some distance from what appears to be the shortest route, Ukraine was never in the picture.
Jul 18, 2014, 8:13 am
#713
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,093
Since FAA banned flying over the troubled region 3 months ago, more airlines followed that advice other than U.S. airliners.
I do agree partially.
Using (sourec: FlightAware) statistic I realized that most airlines were flying over the troubled part of Ukraine without problems.
Before the tragedy (checked statistic available)
Even considering the time some airlines are more reserved than others
FRA - HKG route
LH flying over troubled parts of Ukraine all the time
CX sistematically avoiding troubled parts of Ukraine
CZ always avoiding Ukraine all together (Europe flights to Guangzhou)
Some flight routes involved
Direct flights from various places in W and C Europe:
- to N E Asia (namely Japan, N China, S. Korea, Mongolia)
not need flying troubled parts of Ukraine because it's not the shortest route
- to S China (e.g. HKG), India (?), SE Asia (Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok ...)
it's a matter of choice for the airline.
Save fuel or fly over troubled parts of Ukraine.
What I checked (not all of course) they prefer to save the fuel (till the tragedy happened).
Finnair (from Helsinki) due to the location no need to fly over troubled areas to save fuel.
Any site link with more info?
(side note)
By the way flying from NW Italy to the SE corner of Italy according to the italian news costs 2000 euro for an airplane like the one involved in the accident. Countries fee to fly over their territory are different from country to country (so I read).
Using (sourec: FlightAware) statistic I realized that most airlines were flying over the troubled part of Ukraine without problems.
Before the tragedy (checked statistic available)
Even considering the time some airlines are more reserved than others
FRA - HKG route
LH flying over troubled parts of Ukraine all the time
CX sistematically avoiding troubled parts of Ukraine
CZ always avoiding Ukraine all together (Europe flights to Guangzhou)
Some flight routes involved
Direct flights from various places in W and C Europe:
- to N E Asia (namely Japan, N China, S. Korea, Mongolia)
not need flying troubled parts of Ukraine because it's not the shortest route
- to S China (e.g. HKG), India (?), SE Asia (Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok ...)
it's a matter of choice for the airline.
Save fuel or fly over troubled parts of Ukraine.
What I checked (not all of course) they prefer to save the fuel (till the tragedy happened).
Finnair (from Helsinki) due to the location no need to fly over troubled areas to save fuel.
Any site link with more info?
(side note)
By the way flying from NW Italy to the SE corner of Italy according to the italian news costs 2000 euro for an airplane like the one involved in the accident. Countries fee to fly over their territory are different from country to country (so I read).
Now that's settled, we can move on to other more pressing points.
Last edited by Guava; Jul 18, 2014 at 8:20 am
Jul 18, 2014, 8:14 am
#714
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 89
This is a completely pointless avenue for argument. Many planes fly over war zones. It's been taboo to hit them so far. It has nothing to do with irresponsibility. As far as the majors go, SQ, EK, EI, TG are just quick examples of who flew that corridor - some, like SQ, on pretty much ALL their flights (since LHR/CDG/FRA all sort of fall into the same area from SIN). Abandon them and you can pretty much wave goodbye to getting to Asia from Europe. If you want someone to blame, blame the air traffic controllers and Eurocontrol.
Using (sourec: FlightAware) statistic I realized that most airlines were flying over the troubled part of Ukraine without problems.
Before the tragedy (checked statistic available)
Even considering the time some airlines are more reserved than others
FRA - HKG route
LH flying over troubled parts of Ukraine all the time
CX sistematically avoiding troubled parts of Ukraine
CZ always avoiding Ukraine all together (Europe flights to Guangzhou)
Some flight routes involved
Direct flights from various places in W and C Europe:
- to N E Asia (namely Japan, N China, S. Korea, Mongolia)
not need flying troubled parts of Ukraine because it's not the shortest route
- to S China (e.g. HKG), India (?), SE Asia (Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok ...)
it's a matter of choice for the airline.
Save fuel or fly over troubled parts of Ukraine.
What I checked (not all of course) they prefer to save the fuel (till the tragedy happened).
Finnair (from Helsinki) due to the location no need to fly over troubled areas to save fuel.
Any site link with more info?
(side note)
By the way flying from NW Italy to the SE corner of Italy according to the italian news costs 2000 euro for an airplane like the one involved in the accident. Countries fee to fly over their territory are different from country to country (so I read).
Jul 18, 2014, 8:15 am
#715
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: VIE
Programs: SAS EBS / *A Silver, Hilton Diamond, Radisson VIP, IHG Platinum Ambassador
Posts: 3,770
Jul 18, 2014, 8:16 am
#716
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in a cabin
Posts: 6,521
The Financial Times has this interesting piece:
Definitive proof of who shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 – and with what – has yet to surface and the information war between Ukraine and Russia over who is responsible is in full swing.
Moscow has asserted that a Ukrainian anti-aircraft unit may have been responsible. But the circumstantial evidence is mounting fast, and, so far at least, it points squarely at pro-Russia separatist forces.....
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7efea...#axzz37pPRYKMx
Login required
Definitive proof of who shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 – and with what – has yet to surface and the information war between Ukraine and Russia over who is responsible is in full swing.
Moscow has asserted that a Ukrainian anti-aircraft unit may have been responsible. But the circumstantial evidence is mounting fast, and, so far at least, it points squarely at pro-Russia separatist forces.....
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7efea...#axzz37pPRYKMx
Login required
Jul 18, 2014, 8:27 am
#717
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Programs: MR/SPG LT Titanium, AA LT PLT, UA SLV, Avis PreferredPlus
Posts: 31,008
Jul 18, 2014, 8:37 am
#718
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tucson
Programs: IHG Plat, HH Gold
Posts: 20
I read the first several hundred posts when this story was still in it's infancy. Here's a story from today ...
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07...pped-our-guts/
Australian woman loses 3 relatives in both Malaysian flight disasters
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07...pped-our-guts/
Australian woman loses 3 relatives in both Malaysian flight disasters
Jul 18, 2014, 8:38 am
#719
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Passport - nationality issues have been exhausted here - for further discussion, please go to Travel Safety/Security Practical Travel Safety Issues Forum.
Aircraft routing in / near conflict zones has also reached its point of exhaustion, and ultimate repetitiveness. If you wish to discuss aircraft routing over / around conflict zones, please do so in Travel Safety/Security Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate Forum
Further posts regarding either of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
Thank you.
Moderation team
Aircraft routing in / near conflict zones has also reached its point of exhaustion, and ultimate repetitiveness. If you wish to discuss aircraft routing over / around conflict zones, please do so in Travel Safety/Security Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate Forum
Further posts regarding either of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
Thank you.
Moderation team
Jul 18, 2014, 8:49 am
#720
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BOS/LON/SEA
Programs: AA Reg
Posts: 161
Alleged audio recording of communication between Russian Military Officers & Pro-Russian Separatists talking after they realized they shot down a civilian plane.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia...alflow_twitter
A little chilling particularly as you listen to the change in tones of the voices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia...alflow_twitter
A little chilling particularly as you listen to the change in tones of the voices.