Jul 17, 2014, 9:40 am
Last edit by: NewbieRunner
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Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
This thread is about the loss of MH 17. In depth discussion of unrelated topics — geopolitics, passport theft, aviation security, airport security procedures, etc. — belongs in other fora. A few include:
OMNI/PR: Discussion of perspectives on politics and religion, including geopolitics and terrorism (requires 180 days on FT and 180 constructive posts prior to admission)
If you wish to discuss the politics and political implications related to this issue (or others), please do so in OMNI/PR; the MH 777 Crashes In Ukraine - Official In Kiev Claims Airliner Shot Down By Separatists thread is the place.
Travel Safety/Security: Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (including routing passenger aircraft over conflict areas).
Travel Safety/Security: Practical Travel Safety Issues for those discussing travel safety and security issues because they are planning a trip soon (including passport and nationality issues).
TravelBuzz: TravelBuzz for those wishing to discuss the relative safety of a specific aircraft - e.g. Boeing 777.
Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
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Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)
Jul 17, 2014, 11:45 am
#316
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http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...as-356499.html
Separatist leader and alleged active Russian GRU officer claims his group shot down MH17:
Separatist leader and alleged active Russian GRU officer claims his group shot down MH17:
Russian-backed separatist leader Igor Girkin (who also goes by the name of Strelkov) claimed credit. "The plane has just been taken down somewhere around Torez (Donetsk Oblast). It lays there behind the Progress mine. We did warn you – do not fly in 'our sky.' And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down. The bird went down behind the slagheap, not in the residential district. So no peaceful people were injured." There is also information about another plane shot.
[...]Strelkov, however, apparently mistook the plane for the Ukrainian air force's. He is a Moscow native who Ukraine's State Security Service says is a high-ranking officer in Russia's military intelligence department.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:47 am
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Jul 17, 2014, 11:47 am
#318
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Quite agree. I flew over Iraq myself some 10 days before that and it seemed we were weaving between smoking oil refineries...or battlefields. I thought the choice of route, while interesting, was a bit odd given that it is a war zone. But I simply thought we were out of range of anything dangerous. Where and when us this nonsense going to stop??
Last edited by Concerto; Jul 17, 2014 at 11:48 am Reason: Spelling
Jul 17, 2014, 11:49 am
#319
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Maybe I should have qualified that as war zones where the combatants have/use missiles - and Malayasian has the additional record of losing planes. And if LH and AF are flying over the eastern Ukraine, then their managers are equally incompetent. I will still fly LH and AF, but not near the Ukrane.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:49 am
#320
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Jul 17, 2014, 11:49 am
#321
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Do you have a source showing the MH17 flight plan that includes one of the closed routes? If you plot the routes on http://skyvector.com/, the flight path of MH17 up to the point of the crash does not intersect any of the closed routes mentioned in the NOTAM. As far as I can tell, all the closed routes are in Russian airspace.
If you don't have a source showing that MH17 was actually flying one of the closed routes, please don't post inflammatory insinuations.
If you don't have a source showing that MH17 was actually flying one of the closed routes, please don't post inflammatory insinuations.
(FPL-MAS17-IS
-B772/H-SDFGHIJ3J5M1RWXY/LB1D1
-EHAM1000
-N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350 L980 TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED B449 RANAH L750 ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH A464 DAKUS DCT
-WMKK1137 WMSA WMKP
-EET/EDGG0017 EDWW0023 EDUU0036 EPWW0052 UKLV0135 UKBV0153 UKDV0225 URRV0255 UATT0347 UTAK0411 UTAA0432 UTAV0507 OAKX0518 OPLR0601 OPKR0616 VIDF0631 VABF0725 VECF0747 VYYF0926 VOMF0930 VTBB1013 WMFC1051 REG/9MMRD PBN/A1B1C1D1L1O1S2 SEL/QREJ DOF/140717 RMK/ACASII EQUIPPED)
TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED
"EHAM 1000" indicates departure time in Zulu time.
"DOF/140717" indicated departure date -- today.
The "TAMAK-TIROD-MAMED" sequence indicates the flight was filed to fly the closed airway through Russian airspace, which begins -- when you are flying west to east -- at the TAMAK waypoint which is situated at the Ukranian-Russian border.
It is accurate to say the Russians do not have the power to close an air route over Ukrainian airspace, but when they close their portion of the airlane that picks up right at the border it has the same effect.
SkyNews is right now reporting that the cautionary NOTAM was issued at 0000 Zulu and "ignored" by MH.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:50 am
#322
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http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...as-356499.html
Separatist leader and alleged active Russian GRU officer claims his group shot down MH17:
Separatist leader and alleged active Russian GRU officer claims his group shot down MH17:
Russian-backed separatist leader Igor Girkin (who also goes by the name of Strelkov) claimed credit. "The plane has just been taken down somewhere around Torez (Donetsk Oblast). It lays there behind the Progress mine. We did warn you – do not fly in 'our sky.' And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down. The bird went down behind the slagheap, not in the residential district. So no peaceful people were injured." There is also information about another plane shot.
[...]Strelkov, however, apparently mistook the plane for the Ukrainian air force's. He is a Moscow native who Ukraine's State Security Service says is a high-ranking officer in Russia's military intelligence department.
This whole thing is a huge mess.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:50 am
#323
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Maybe I should have qualified that as war zones where the combatants have/use missiles - and Malayasian has the additional record of losing planes. And if LH and AF are flying over the eastern Ukraine, then their managers are equally incompetent. I will still fly LH and AF, but not near the Ukrane.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:51 am
#324
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A NOTAM unfortunately doesn't do much if: the crew were not provided it in flight planning, or by the airline (I usually read NOTAMs during my flight planning), or if crew ignored the notice.
As some have enquired about the Buk Ground to Air Air Defence Missile (Wikipedia):
Several variants exist; the system was originally designed in the 1970s. These are usually mounted on some kind of (tracked or wheeled) vehicle and carry an array of missiles (usually four).
As some have enquired about the Buk Ground to Air Air Defence Missile (Wikipedia):
Propellant: Solid propellant rocket
Operational range: 30 kilometres (19 mi)
Flight altitude: 14,000 metres (46,000 ft)
Speed: Mach 3
Guidance system: Semi-active radar homing
Operational range: 30 kilometres (19 mi)
Flight altitude: 14,000 metres (46,000 ft)
Speed: Mach 3
Guidance system: Semi-active radar homing
Last edited by JDiver; Jul 17, 2014 at 3:27 pm
Jul 17, 2014, 11:52 am
#325
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Although not yet officially confirmed by Malaysia Airlines, it is with great regret that KLM has learnt about the possible incident with flight MH17, codeshare KL4103, of Malaysia Airlines from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
We are in contact with Malaysia Airlines to obtain further information. As a precautionary measure KLM avoids flying over the concerned territory. KLM has published the currently available emergency number of Malaysia Airlines: 0060378841234.
We are in contact with Malaysia Airlines to obtain further information. As a precautionary measure KLM avoids flying over the concerned territory. KLM has published the currently available emergency number of Malaysia Airlines: 0060378841234.
Last edited by aBroadAbroad; Jul 17, 2014 at 12:05 pm Reason: Added quote code to clarify
Jul 17, 2014, 11:53 am
#326
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Yes, but all the airlines I have listed flew over conflict areas according to flightradar/ flightaware data.
Jul 17, 2014, 11:53 am
#327
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I guess what he was referring to is that this Strelkov tweeted earlier boasting that they had shot down a Ukrainian plane. The tweet was around the same time as contact was lost with the MH flight. The tweet has since been taken down but it is all over Facebook among Ukrainian users. He did not say that he had ordered the plane down but he did boast that they had shot down [what they believed was] a Ukrainian plane.
This is the VK page where the videos were posted along with the quotations. They are now removed. It is replaced now with a statement blaming Ukraine it seems. So the first one brags about the shootdown, deleted, now replaced with blaming Ukraine or else "manager error" (pilot error) for the "crash."
http://vk.com/strelkov_info
Make your own judgments.
This is the Chrome translation (so some words are going to be wonky).
"17.07.2014. Statement to the press service of LC. "Malaysian airliner was shot down by Ukrainian stormtrooper airspace over Luhansk and Donetsk Republic closed the Ukrainian government. Violation Malaysian airliner could happen for two reasons: 1) provocation by Ukraine; 2) manager error. Any vessel on regulations defense should be knocked down a country whose airspace it violated. Witnesses who watched the flight of the Boeing 777 passenger, watched him gunship attack on the Ukrainian Air Force. Afterwards passenger plane split in two in the air and fell on the territory of the DNI. Ukrainian Forward After the attack was shot down and fell on the territory of the LC in the Red Ray. At the moment we are searching for a downed aircraft. ""
Jul 17, 2014, 11:55 am
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Jul 17, 2014, 11:57 am
#330
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probably. and as i pointed out earlier. UA flights to KWI were flying over iraq when that route started, and that, in my opinion, was a much more volatile area. so it does happen.