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Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)

Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)

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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:26 am
  #286  
 
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[redacted]

MH was not alone in flying over Ukrainian airspace. The following airlines all do:

TG, SQ, MH, KL, VN, TK, QR, AI, DY, BR, EK and LH amongst others - I don't really think MH deserves the blame for this one...

Last edited by aBroadAbroad; Jul 17, 14 at 2:27 pm Reason: Removed quote from deleted post
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:27 am
  #287  
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Originally Posted by laldn View Post
Unconfirmed, but from a Ukrainian journalist on twitter:

"Ukrainian police can't come to the side of the tragedy,terrorists are blocking the way.they said will send black boxes to Moscow..."
And of course Moscow can be trusted to report the data faithfully.

Originally Posted by Temedar View Post
With due respect to McFaul, there is no source provided
The McFaul tweet contradicts every other narrative about parties denying responsibility. Grain of salt.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:27 am
  #288  
 
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Originally Posted by tyberius View Post
That ANA seems to have felt the same way seems to indicate that at least some people with "knowledge of international flight planning and practice" felt the same way.
The only reason why ANA doesn't fly over the Ukraine is that the logical flight path from Japan to central Europe is over Siberia, crossing the Ural mountains and eventually reaching the Baltic Sea. Has nothing to do with foresightfully avoiding conflict zones.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:27 am
  #289  
 
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Originally Posted by lokijuh View Post
But not the only ones. Look at flight path for KLM for the same route, also over eastern Ukraine.
I guess it behooves one to check out the routes that airlines are flying before one commits to a flight.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:28 am
  #290  
 
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Originally Posted by Diogenes1789 View Post
That Malaysian routes their aircraft through active war zones says volumes about the competence and integrity of their managers. I would never fly them.
Then I guess you'll never fly Lufthansa, Air France, and other major airliners as well.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:29 am
  #291  
 
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SU and UN to avoid ALL of Ukrainian airspace (except for flights to/from Ukraine) until further notice. Reuters said to report that LH is doing the same
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:29 am
  #292  
 
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Originally Posted by Diogenes1789 View Post
Assuming (until proven otherwise) the perpetrators were Ukranian rebels, it would not be possible to sanction them, since they are not a nation.
They are not Ukrainian rebels, they are Russians. If anyone wants to sanction them they should sanction Russia and its president.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:29 am
  #293  
 
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How do you file a flight plan going over a war zone where possibly there was even a travel warning issued by local authorities? Shouldn't a computer somewhere reject that and kick it back to the pilots and say that's a "no-go"?
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:30 am
  #294  
 
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Originally Posted by haddon90 View Post
Quote:





Originally Posted by djp98374


The comment was a shot at the incompetence of the airline. Fly over a war zone??? A warzone that has antiaircraft missles.




i believe when UA started the KWI route, the flight path was over iraq.
Correct. Right over Baghdad.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:32 am
  #295  
 
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Originally Posted by lokijuh View Post
But not the only ones. Look at flight path for KLM for the same route, also over eastern Ukraine.
To further complicate things, MH/KL codeshare on this route, so a KL flight could be on MH metal.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:33 am
  #296  
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Originally Posted by Temedar View Post
Very interesting. Can the timestamp be confirmed by sources outside of Russia?
The text was pasted to Pprune.org a short time ago. ISO second-source validation now. It could possibly have been reverse-engineered to shift blame from the Russian military, but the timing of information release will be quickly cross-checked and the truth would be hard to shake.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:33 am
  #297  
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Originally Posted by ex-koelner View Post
The only reason why ANA doesn't fly over the Ukraine is that the logical flight path from Japan to central Europe is over Siberia, crossing the Ural mountains and eventually reaching the Baltic Sea. Has nothing to do with foresightfully avoiding conflict zones.
I disagree somewhat. Look at NH203 paths lately:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...555Z/RJTT/EDDF

That seems like an intentional avoidance. Unfortunately, I do not have premium access to FlightAware, so I can't trace this flight back to inception, so I can't verify it it's been altered in the last year or so. Maybe someone could? Not that it would help matters any.
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:34 am
  #298  
 
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MH17 departed some hours after this NOTAM took effect. If the MH17 crew either did not know about this new prohibition or disregarded it, it will suggest serious culpability and negligence on the part of Malaysia Airlines.
[redacted] even if HM17 knew about this it in no way justifies shooting a commercial airliner. You don't simply shoot at a big blob on your radar, without asking questions, on a commercial route, even if it was supposedly "closed" unilaterally by Russians "a couple hours earlier".

Last edited by aBroadAbroad; Jul 17, 14 at 11:36 am Reason: Unnecessarily personal
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:35 am
  #299  
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Originally Posted by ironmanjt View Post
Could you please cite where "planes are being shot down on a weekly basis?" They are not.
"At least 10 other Ukrainian aircraft — all of them significantly lower-flying than a Boeing 777 — have been shot down since the rebels started using MANPADS according to a count kept by military aviation expert David Cenciotti, including five Mi-24 Hinds, two Mi-8 helicopters, one An-2, one An-30, and the Ukrainian transport plane. "

http://www.businessinsider.com/ukrai...t-month-2014-7

Not counted in this list is an SU-24 fighter jet shot down on July 14th, for a total of 11.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_0...-militia-8602/

What I am trying to state in that short phrase, but spelled out longhand here and backed up by the reports above is that:

1. the rebels have strong anti-aircraft capabilities capable of shooting down helicopters, transport jets, and fighter jets

2. they are actively using them and reporting this activity

3. the downed aircraft amounts to more than one per week on average since the beginning of June

4. last shot down aircraft was 4 days ago so the activity is current

This apparently started when they gained access to enhanced weapons at the end of May / beginning of June.

So to be pedantic I can rephrase as "on average 1.57 aircraft per week are being successfully destroyed by anti-aircraft activity over south-eastern Ukraine since the beginning of June."
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Old Jul 17, 14, 11:35 am
  #300  
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Originally Posted by kingsroadgal View Post
How do you file a flight plan going over a war zone where possibly there was even a travel warning issued by local authorities? Shouldn't a computer somewhere reject that and kick it back to the pilots and say that's a "no-go"?
As several other posters here have noted, commercial air traffic routinely overflies "war zones." I've flown over Afghanistan several times en route DEL. Iraq, Syria, and other hot spots also commonly have civilian airliners overhead. Cruising altitude is typically considered enough protection.
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