Being "walked" from a Four Seasons
Mar 1, 2019, 7:45 pm
#76
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It's an outrage such a thing can even happen at a Four Seasons in the first place, regardless whether the OP was duels compensated or not. I don't know why overbooking is allowed legally by law. Perhaps this was done by the airlines / hotels to reduce cost but if the service was already paid in advance, it technically constitute a default of contract on the part of the airline / hotel and whatever compensation, on a case by case basis, does not make up for the inconvenience and disruption that it entails.
Mar 1, 2019, 8:18 pm
#77
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All hotels overbook. One of the few good things about "early checkin" on Marriott is that you have an assigned room. If I arrive anywhere after 10 pm, I call and request check in. FS did provide you with a room which they felt comparable. Thus they owe you nothing. That said, they usually don't want you pissed at them. We don't know how OP interacted. When I was the corporate named owner of a Marriott, I can tell you that we did little to make the angry a..hole happy while bent over to make the nice guy happier. From the "demands" I hear here, I probably would not. Again, here is a note on the industry standards on overbooking Also, did I not read that they offered him a meal in their restaurant? Having stayed their and eaten their, that is a pretty hefty compensation for the one night
Industry standards: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/18/b...ng-travel.html
Industry standards: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/18/b...ng-travel.html
I think this NYT article is incorrect when it says that Marriott/Bonvoy SILVER members can get $200 AND 140,000 points for a walk from a high tier Starriott property. In the past, MR did this for Plat elites (75+ nights per year, or lifetime 750 nights and 2,000,000 lifetime nights), not Silvers (IIRC only 10 nights per year).
Good for one of TPG's employees to negotiate a walk from a Courtyard for the first night of a two night stay to turn into two nights at the LM in Barcelona.
Good for one of TPG's employees to negotiate a walk from a Courtyard for the first night of a two night stay to turn into two nights at the LM in Barcelona.
Mar 1, 2019, 8:56 pm
#78
formerly known as deathscar
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It's an outrage such a thing can even happen at a Four Seasons in the first place, regardless whether the OP was duels compensated or not. I don't know why overbooking is allowed legally by law. Perhaps this was done by the airlines / hotels to reduce cost but if the service was already paid in advance, it technically constitute a default of contract on the part of the airline / hotel and whatever compensation, on a case by case basis, does not make up for the inconvenience and disruption that it entails.
If a hotel or restaurant relied solely on only the customers who booked to turn up, a 95% occupancy could easily drop to 70%, especially if one booking was a 8 person group at a restaurant who decided to cancel last minute.
This admittedly does affect the luxury industry a lot less than it does airlines specifically, and also non luxury hotels. Can’t say I’ve heard too many instances of a luxury hotel selling beyond its capacity - versus late buyouts which can happen.
Mar 1, 2019, 11:56 pm
#79
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Because tons of guests no-show or cancel right before the deadline. It works both ways. Consumers want to have flexibility and they want lower prices too. If overbooking were outlawed, hotels and restaurants would largely eliminate refundable fares and likely also raise prices. Just look at restaurants on tock for example.
I worked in the hotel industry for a long time so I can see it both ways. And believe me, no luxury hotel ever wants to walk a guest (well, no competent luxury hotel at least - obviously the thread topic property with its BS initial compensation offer shows ipso facto incompetence). Most of the time IME, it only happened because several high-paying, frequent guests extended their stays and we just had to make that judgment call. Sometimes, of course, IM really screws up somehow. Walking guests is terrible for reputation and, even directly, costs the hotel more in compensation than it is worth. At most luxury properties I worked at, default compensation for a walk was full refund, so anytime IM screwed up it cost us way more money than it was worth.
I worked in the hotel industry for a long time so I can see it both ways. And believe me, no luxury hotel ever wants to walk a guest (well, no competent luxury hotel at least - obviously the thread topic property with its BS initial compensation offer shows ipso facto incompetence). Most of the time IME, it only happened because several high-paying, frequent guests extended their stays and we just had to make that judgment call. Sometimes, of course, IM really screws up somehow. Walking guests is terrible for reputation and, even directly, costs the hotel more in compensation than it is worth. At most luxury properties I worked at, default compensation for a walk was full refund, so anytime IM screwed up it cost us way more money than it was worth.
Mar 2, 2019, 2:17 am
#80
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It has been discussed to an extent before. The truth is that it’s somewhere in between - I’m sure a big part of it is to maximise revenue, but that partly plays down to the fact that in today’s world, people often change their plans. And I mean something as simple as lunch or dinner meet ups, nevermind travels and trips. See also restaurants who have started taking paid reservations only.
If a hotel or restaurant relied solely on only the customers who booked to turn up, a 95% occupancy could easily drop to 70%, especially if one booking was a 8 person group at a restaurant who decided to cancel last minute.
This admittedly does affect the luxury industry a lot less than it does airlines specifically, and also non luxury hotels. Can’t say I’ve heard too many instances of a luxury hotel selling beyond its capacity - versus late buyouts which can happen.
Because tons of guests no-show or cancel right before the deadline. It works both ways. Consumers want to have flexibility and they want lower prices too. If overbooking were outlawed, hotels and restaurants would largely eliminate refundable fares and likely also raise prices. Just look at restaurants on tock for example.
I worked in the hotel industry for a long time so I can see it both ways. And believe me, no luxury hotel ever wants to walk a guest (well, no competent luxury hotel at least - obviously the thread topic property with its BS initial compensation offer shows ipso facto incompetence). Most of the time IME, it only happened because several high-paying, frequent guests extended their stays and we just had to make that judgment call. Sometimes, of course, IM really screws up somehow. Walking guests is terrible for reputation and, even directly, costs the hotel more in compensation than it is worth. At most luxury properties I worked at, default compensation for a walk was full refund, so anytime IM screwed up it cost us way more money than it was worth.
I worked in the hotel industry for a long time so I can see it both ways. And believe me, no luxury hotel ever wants to walk a guest (well, no competent luxury hotel at least - obviously the thread topic property with its BS initial compensation offer shows ipso facto incompetence). Most of the time IME, it only happened because several high-paying, frequent guests extended their stays and we just had to make that judgment call. Sometimes, of course, IM really screws up somehow. Walking guests is terrible for reputation and, even directly, costs the hotel more in compensation than it is worth. At most luxury properties I worked at, default compensation for a walk was full refund, so anytime IM screwed up it cost us way more money than it was worth.
I am lucky not to have ever encountered this situation before but will properly go ballistic if it happens to me like in the OP casel. Personally, I find the practice of over-booking to be a disgusting business practice and the fact that it is legal and apparently accepted and tolerated by some puzzled me.
Mar 2, 2019, 3:05 am
#81
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I think both these arguments are not valid at all. It's different from someone making a reservation at a restaurant and didn't showed up. In this case, the OP already paid for the stay. In an airline case, the passenger already bought and paid for the ticket and both are entitled to received the product/service. The hotel/airline already received the revenue and for them to fail to deliver the product should in theory constitute a default of contract. Even if the hotel booking was made with a credit card guarantee, there is still no grounds for bumping the guest out as the hotel is entitled to charge the guests a night stay if the guest didn't turned up so why should the guest be inconvenienced? Bottomline is not cost savings but greed because they tried to maximize revenue at the expenses of the paying customer.
I am lucky not to have ever encountered this situation before but will properly go ballistic if it happens to me like in the OP casel. Personally, I find the practice of over-booking to be a disgusting business practice and the fact that it is legal and apparently accepted and tolerated by some puzzled me.
I am lucky not to have ever encountered this situation before but will properly go ballistic if it happens to me like in the OP casel. Personally, I find the practice of over-booking to be a disgusting business practice and the fact that it is legal and apparently accepted and tolerated by some puzzled me.
First off, note that the airline case isn't absolute - buying a refundable ticket only means a full deposit has been given.
If you want to play contracts, then note that all airline CoC's I'm aware of have stipulations for oversell situations. So your statement of default as far as airlines (and any hotels) that have those clauses is incorrect.
Even if there is no oversell clause in the contract, there have to be actual damages in order to exist liability. It isn't good enough that a contract was broken if there are no damages. This is why the industry standard minimum for walk situations is walking to a comparable hotel and paying for transportation, because that's the damage caused. In the luxury properties I mentioned above, that's why the standard minimum was walking and a full refund, not only to go way above and beyond on any possible damage/inconvenience caused to the guest, but also a goodwill gesture for the mess.
And we can go on and on about "greed" and wanting to increase revenue, but the simple reality is that in a competitive marketplace, that is what lowers prices for all of us. The irony here is that hotels would MUCH rather have all reservations be nonrefundable, but it is customers who demand flexibility and that's why refundable fares exist.
Finally, even if your desire is to refuse to patronize hospitality companies that oversell, you still have options. B6, for example, has a no-oversell policy. Many luxury properties won't oversell and you can certainly inquire if they do - although, as I pointed out already, a no-oversell policy doesn't mean that oversold situations won't happen. If the property is at 100% occ and a guest wants to extend his stay and refuses to leave, management is left in a very tough position; sure, they can Dr. Dao the guy, but walking someone else is certainly a better and easier option than getting the police involved and the horrible press that will ensue. And ironically, it's very difficult for restaurants not to oversell, simply because it's impossible to know how long patrons are going to take - I mean, have you ever showed up for your X p.m. dinner reservation and you're made to wait 10 minutes? I guess you blow a gasket because they oversold.
Yes, in a utopian perfect world, there wouldn't be overbooking and few people would cheer the practice in a vacuum. But there are reasons for it and consumers as a whole do realize benefits from the practice, even if they aren't obvious to you.
Last edited by gengar; Mar 2, 2019 at 3:10 am
Mar 2, 2019, 3:25 am
#82
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You're going to have to do a lot better if you want to declare my argument invalid.
First off, note that the airline case isn't absolute - buying a refundable ticket only means a full deposit has been given.
If you want to play contracts, then note that all airline CoC's I'm aware of have stipulations for oversell situations. So your statement of default as far as airlines (and any hotels) that have those clauses is incorrect.
Even if there is no oversell clause in the contract, there have to be actual damages in order to exist liability. It isn't good enough that a contract was broken if there are no damages. This is why the industry standard minimum for walk situations is walking to a comparable hotel and paying for transportation, because that's the damage caused. In the luxury properties I mentioned above, that's why the standard minimum was walking and a full refund, not only to go way above and beyond on any possible damage/inconvenience caused to the guest, but also a goodwill gesture for the mess.
And we can go on and on about "greed" and wanting to increase revenue, but the simple reality is that in a competitive marketplace, that is what lowers prices for all of us. The irony here is that hotels would MUCH rather have all reservations be nonrefundable, but it is customers who demand flexibility and that's why refundable fares exist.
Finally, even if your desire is to refuse to patronize hospitality companies that oversell, you still have options. B6, for example, has a no-oversell policy. Many luxury properties won't oversell and you can certainly inquire if they do - although, as I pointed out already, a no-oversell policy doesn't mean that oversold situations won't happen. If the property is at 100% occ and a guest wants to extend his stay and refuses to leave, management is left in a very tough position; sure, they can Dr. Dao the guy, but walking someone else is certainly a better and easier option than getting the police involved and the horrible press that will ensue. And ironically, it's very difficult for restaurants not to oversell, simply because it's impossible to know how long patrons are going to take - I mean, have you ever showed up for your X p.m. dinner reservation and you're made to wait 10 minutes? I guess you blow a gasket because they oversold.
Yes, in a utopian perfect world, there wouldn't be overbooking and few people would cheer the practice in a vacuum. But there are reasons for it and consumers as a whole do realize benefits from the practice, even if they aren't obvious to you.
First off, note that the airline case isn't absolute - buying a refundable ticket only means a full deposit has been given.
If you want to play contracts, then note that all airline CoC's I'm aware of have stipulations for oversell situations. So your statement of default as far as airlines (and any hotels) that have those clauses is incorrect.
Even if there is no oversell clause in the contract, there have to be actual damages in order to exist liability. It isn't good enough that a contract was broken if there are no damages. This is why the industry standard minimum for walk situations is walking to a comparable hotel and paying for transportation, because that's the damage caused. In the luxury properties I mentioned above, that's why the standard minimum was walking and a full refund, not only to go way above and beyond on any possible damage/inconvenience caused to the guest, but also a goodwill gesture for the mess.
And we can go on and on about "greed" and wanting to increase revenue, but the simple reality is that in a competitive marketplace, that is what lowers prices for all of us. The irony here is that hotels would MUCH rather have all reservations be nonrefundable, but it is customers who demand flexibility and that's why refundable fares exist.
Finally, even if your desire is to refuse to patronize hospitality companies that oversell, you still have options. B6, for example, has a no-oversell policy. Many luxury properties won't oversell and you can certainly inquire if they do - although, as I pointed out already, a no-oversell policy doesn't mean that oversold situations won't happen. If the property is at 100% occ and a guest wants to extend his stay and refuses to leave, management is left in a very tough position; sure, they can Dr. Dao the guy, but walking someone else is certainly a better and easier option than getting the police involved and the horrible press that will ensue. And ironically, it's very difficult for restaurants not to oversell, simply because it's impossible to know how long patrons are going to take - I mean, have you ever showed up for your X p.m. dinner reservation and you're made to wait 10 minutes? I guess you blow a gasket because they oversold.
Yes, in a utopian perfect world, there wouldn't be overbooking and few people would cheer the practice in a vacuum. But there are reasons for it and consumers as a whole do realize benefits from the practice, even if they aren't obvious to you.
What a load of rubbish. I paid for the ticket, I should be entitled to board the plane and take the flight. If I paid for the hotel, I am entitled to stay. Period. Unless baring unforseen mishap which will be unstandable. Airllines and hotels can definitely control their inventory. And in the case of a guest not wanting to leave, that is ridiculous. If I only booked for 3 nights, then it is the hotel discretion to if they are willing to extend to four. So yes, if a guest over-stay and not willing to leave, then yes, the hotel is entitled to boot this guest out as it is only fair for the next incoming guest. But if I paid for 3 nights, then I am fully entitled for the 3 nights. If really like someone buy out the hotel, then the hotel is in this rare case, responsible to find me equivalent accommodation.
Bottom line, it's greed. Don't give me the cost-saving for everyone crap. It's is not rocket science to plan airline seats and hotel rooms availability. Luxury hotel rates are already expensive enough.
See if this happened to you and you are in the middle of the night trying to look for another property to stay and whether you will still be waxing lyrical about this practice being justifiable. Just because something is legal doesn't make them right.
Mar 2, 2019, 3:34 am
#83
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Always easy to make assumptions about others. I don't recommend it though.
Mar 2, 2019, 3:48 am
#84
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It's quite interesting (and telling) that you attempted to use contractual obligations to support the argument in your last post, yet here you are now admitting that even if you agree to a contract, you're not interested in the parts that you disagree with.
Always easy to make assumptions about others. I don't recommend it though.
Always easy to make assumptions about others. I don't recommend it though.
I guess we are never going to agree on this case and neither of us will convince one another so we better not carry on or it's going to be ugly. Stick with what you feel is right and I still stick with mine.
Mar 2, 2019, 3:58 am
#85
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Advice that would have been very well applied to your first response here.
Mar 2, 2019, 4:18 am
#86
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And again, it's not a default if it is part of the contract! You keep going on and on about contractual obligations and principles of commerce and defaulting, but then you admit what you're really saying is that you want to be able to ignore the portions of a contract that you don't like while forcing the other party to adhere to the portions of a contract that you do like. No matter how you feel about it, this is just not a tenable position, legally or ethically.
Advice that would have been very well applied to your first response here.
Advice that would have been very well applied to your first response here.
I paid for a product, the other party is not able to deliver. No circumstances to justify force majure. Then it's a default. Case close. Everything else you wrote is just twisting words. Whether legally or not it is a default is another matter entirely. Lots of things in this word that is legal but not morally right. I'll close the case and won't respond further for obviously you and me have drastically different ethical standards. To you, overbooking and profit maximisation out of greed is exalted as a virtue. Next time you are booted out of a hotel, or thrown out of a flight involuntarily, be sure to come back here to tell us about your experience. And perhaps you should practice what you preached and volunteer for it regardless of the urgency of your travel schedule.
Mar 2, 2019, 4:30 am
#87
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And vice versa, you can choose not to respond.
I paid for a product, the other party is not able to deliver. No circumstances to justify force majure. Then it's a default. Case close. Everything else you wrote is just twisting words. Whether legally or not it is a default is another matter entirely. Lots of things in this word that is legal but not morally right. I'll close the case and won't respond further for obviously you and me have drastically different ethical standards. To you, overbooking and profit maximisation out of greed is exalted as a virtue. Next time you are booted out of a hotel, or thrown out of a flight involuntarily, be sure to come back here to tell us about your experience. And perhaps you should practice what you preached and volunteer for it regardless of the urgency of your travel schedule.
I paid for a product, the other party is not able to deliver. No circumstances to justify force majure. Then it's a default. Case close. Everything else you wrote is just twisting words. Whether legally or not it is a default is another matter entirely. Lots of things in this word that is legal but not morally right. I'll close the case and won't respond further for obviously you and me have drastically different ethical standards. To you, overbooking and profit maximisation out of greed is exalted as a virtue. Next time you are booted out of a hotel, or thrown out of a flight involuntarily, be sure to come back here to tell us about your experience. And perhaps you should practice what you preached and volunteer for it regardless of the urgency of your travel schedule.
Mar 2, 2019, 5:00 am
#88
formerly known as deathscar
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I think both these arguments are not valid at all. It's different from someone making a reservation at a restaurant and didn't showed up. In this case, the OP already paid for the stay. In an airline case, the passenger already bought and paid for the ticket and both are entitled to received the product/service. The hotel/airline already received the revenue and for them to fail to deliver the product should in theory constitute a default of contract. Even if the hotel booking was made with a credit card guarantee, there is still no grounds for bumping the guest out as the hotel is entitled to charge the guests a night stay if the guest didn't turned up so why should the guest be inconvenienced? Bottomline is not cost savings but greed because they tried to maximize revenue at the expenses of the paying customer.
I am lucky not to have ever encountered this situation before but will properly go ballistic if it happens to me like in the OP casel. Personally, I find the practice of over-booking to be a disgusting business practice and the fact that it is legal and apparently accepted and tolerated by some puzzled me.
I am lucky not to have ever encountered this situation before but will properly go ballistic if it happens to me like in the OP casel. Personally, I find the practice of over-booking to be a disgusting business practice and the fact that it is legal and apparently accepted and tolerated by some puzzled me.
This maybe doesn't belong in the luxury forum, but the issue is far more to do with mass travel than with hotels discussed here specifically in this forum as the situation is a lot less common for true luxury hotels (buyouts will happen, very different from walkouts - in either case, it's about how the hotel handles the situation).
Sticking just to hotels (and not necessarily luxury hotels), if you were to see a strictly enforceable pre-paid, no-cancellation, no amendment and non-refundable policy in place for any booking made at a certain price point and from any method (OTA, direct, agency etc) with absolutely no exceptions, then I think you would see a lot less walk-out situations. However, that is far from the truth.
An individual guest may have 'stuck to the rules' and never ever requested a refund for a change of date or a cancellation or a last minute cancellation etc, but essentially the models are based on hundreds of millions of travelers - many of whom do request such flexibility, myself included, even in the case of booking a non-cancellable rate, to give two examples:
- Had booked a staycation at The Olympian Hong Kong where I often staycation for a random Saturday/weekend night (I'm a frequent guest) on a non-cancellable etc rate direct with the hotel. Unfortunately I had to go on a last minute work trip to Shenzhen for a few nights, and couldn't stay. On my way to Shenzhen, I walked into the hotel and let them know of the situation. As a regular guest, they were understanding and waived any cancellation fees and looked forward to welcoming me back next time.
- Another staycation at another hotel in Hong Kong was booked 3 months in advance of the date of stay, prepaid etc. The minute I made the booking, my friend decided to change dates (by 1 day) and I reached out to the hotel immediately to let them know that unfortunately I have booked the wrong dates and the correct dates should be one day later. This hotel was a bit less understanding of the situation and told me to make another booking and the first one would be non-cancellable etc and I would have to pay for essentially 2 nights. Lots of to and fro, but an agreement was reached eventually.
One of these is last minute, the other isn't. However, in both cases, according to the contract, both hotels had the right to enforce the contract here but in the end chose not to.
Now multiply this by hundreds of millions of travellers, including last minute situations...
Ironically, while walkouts aren't that frequent/common for *true* luxury hotels, last minute cancellations for luxury hotels even with non-flexible and/or flexible cancellation policies often are, as mentioned, especially in today's world (hence why more hotels offer various rate types and some hotels, specifically resorts, that are a bit more remote require partial or full prepayment in advance).
My point is that, sure, the whole thing is based around maximising profit - however, the models they use are a direct result of consumer behaviour today. Think about how hard it is to meet up with friends now on time than before when no body had mobile phones - before, you'd agree on a time and meet up and that was it. Now no one agrees on a time and even when people do, people message 10 mins late saying "we're going to be a bit late" or "just leaving home now" or "be there in 5" (code for still in the shower and haven't left home yet) or "sorry I can't make it".
Last edited by chinmoylad; Mar 2, 2019 at 5:42 am
Mar 2, 2019, 5:45 am
#89
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It's an outrage such a thing can even happen at a Four Seasons in the first place, regardless whether the OP was duels compensated or not. I don't know why overbooking is allowed legally by law. Perhaps this was done by the airlines / hotels to reduce cost but if the service was already paid in advance, it technically constitute a default of contract on the part of the airline / hotel and whatever compensation, on a case by case basis, does not make up for the inconvenience and disruption that it entails.
Mar 2, 2019, 5:47 am
#90
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And vice versa, you can choose not to respond.
I paid for a product, the other party is not able to deliver. No circumstances to justify force majure. Then it's a default. Case close. Everything else you wrote is just twisting words. Whether legally or not it is a default is another matter entirely. Lots of things in this word that is legal but not morally right. I'll close the case and won't respond further for obviously you and me have drastically different ethical standards. To you, overbooking and profit maximisation out of greed is exalted as a virtue. Next time you are booted out of a hotel, or thrown out of a flight involuntarily, be sure to come back here to tell us about your experience. And perhaps you should practice what you preached and volunteer for it regardless of the urgency of your travel schedule.
I paid for a product, the other party is not able to deliver. No circumstances to justify force majure. Then it's a default. Case close. Everything else you wrote is just twisting words. Whether legally or not it is a default is another matter entirely. Lots of things in this word that is legal but not morally right. I'll close the case and won't respond further for obviously you and me have drastically different ethical standards. To you, overbooking and profit maximisation out of greed is exalted as a virtue. Next time you are booted out of a hotel, or thrown out of a flight involuntarily, be sure to come back here to tell us about your experience. And perhaps you should practice what you preached and volunteer for it regardless of the urgency of your travel schedule.