bau31888

Well, at that time the OP used the "overdraft", the rules did not say anything about the fact, that you have to pay it back. Let's call it an overdraft with unlimited maturity and zero % interest. With all due respect to LH and LH's right to change rules, I don't think that they can change these rules and let them become effective for people before the change.

So I'm with LHstatus here. LH should make sure that those freeloaders that have negative account balance have no chance to open a new account, but they shouldn't claim money for the miles! It was their fault, they have learnt from it.

As a loyal LH flyer, I would be happy, if it were different. The money saved or claimed back could result in an (enhancement) improvement for us LH SEN

flysurfer

You might want to have a look at the T&C you accepted when joining M&M.

1) M&M can change the program anytime.
2) If you don't like any new changes, you can leave the program (cancel your membership) immediately free of charge, and you'll have the right to use up any miles left on your account within a specified amount of time.
3) If you do not terminate your membership, you silently accept the changes and they apply to you from this point in time.

andre1970

Now this thread is even funnier. And happier! ^

Flying Lawyer

LH did not change but just clarify the rules. Even bau31888 agrees that the overdraft is a loan. There should be no serious doubt that the M&M relationship is based on German law. However, a loan can be terminated under German law with a termination period of three month, sec. 488 BGB.

And regarding the value of the miles: Sure, in the old days you got 1000 miles for a cheap T-Class ticket. Bythe way: I remember the very old days you got 1000 miles for a domestic C-Class ticket. You had a bigger benefit for a certain period. True. However, the "face value" of miles (= price LH sold them to consumers) was always in the range of 240 Euro per 10.000. But: Nobody (at least nobody informed) pays 240 Euro for 10.000 miles. Or?

flysurfer

Of course they changed the rules.
Overdraft was 150,000 miles and was reduced to 50,000 miles for SENs.
I'd consider this a...change. And even more so, they announced that overdrafts need to be repaid and announced the price.

If you didn't like it, you could have left the program by terminating your membership. Mileage Brokers certainly did, because they are ice-cold professionals w/o any bad conscience in this regard. See bertheike's post for details, I think he made this point of view quite clear.

bau31888

I'm not a lawyer and I don't support those, who have used the miles without intenting to pay them back. However, I still think that LH does not have the right to claim money or miles back. And I think that they won't try it seriously (i.e. to take this case to court).

Well, not all T&C are valid...

flysurfer

Sure, that's when courts and (flying) lawyers come into play.
Enjoy!

flysurfer

That's what most of us think, anyway.

Flying Lawyer

We are not talking about the reduction of the credit line (150k to 50k).

We are talking about repayment of the mile-loan. In the old days, the T&C were silent about repayment. True. But again: The contract is under German law. And German law stipulates that a loan has to be repaid. Got it? There was no need to put in language that a loan has to be repaid.

The change in the T&C was nothing but a clarification of what was part of the contract anyway.

Flying Lawyer

That is what most of us believe. But not because they are uncertain about their case but because it is simply not cost-effective. For a game like this they would use a law firm like ours. Considering our cheapest hourly rate, two or three hours of work would easily consume the amount under dispute.

Grog

If their case is clear-cut, why would it cost them a lot for the game, as you call it? If they have the moral and the legal high ground, they would use it, but they have neither. Face it, LH made errors in their program design, they repaired them and that's that. There is zero evidence or known precedent that law as you're refering to it would serve them in this situation; they know it, and lots of SENs with overdrafts know it. Show me the judge who ruled in their favor. Oh. Wait. They'd need to try and win one case. It ain't happened yet. That says miles more (pun intended) than anything that's been said in this thread.

Grog

What do German laws say about disclosure of the contract? Or after-the-fact changes to loan conditions? Or loans to underaged children? Even if your parallel to a money loan were valid, which I don't at all think it is, the situation is wrought with legal problems. But please continue to repeat the same information over and over and over again. Maybe more people will finally start to subliminally dream them and eventually embrace them.

SleepOverGreenland

This thread is not funny, but some post are pure evidence of incapacity.

How pathetic must people be, who rent something and don't pay it back. Even worse looking for arguments in order to blame the owner of the rented matter.

Sad, what narrow minded people are around.

Grog

For the record, I paid mine back and have earned 200K since then. I still feel the way I feel. I never said that people should not pay back, only that Lufthansa has no proven legal right.

tcswede

What is sad is that this topic comes up for the upteenth time and some people still argue that that soemting borrowed / overdrawn is a one sided action - that requires no further action because they are not aware of their obligation... I would really wonder if in any other situation in life where they borrow / overdraw - the same posters would feel no obligation.

I can in this case understand though that LH feels entitlement....

Cheers

Thomas