eBay removes LH mileage auctions

Old Feb 3, 03, 6:27 am
  #1  
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eBay removes LH mileage auctions

Lufthansa has informed eBay that several of the auctions concerning mileage awards are not "legal" as far as the LH rules are concerned.

This might make some people happy, might irritate others.

I find it interesting that eBay sides with Lufthansa on this issue. Why should eBay pull the auctions? As far as I know the auctions are not illegal in the sense of German law, but are simply against the program's rules.

Any comments on this?
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Old Feb 3, 03, 6:40 am
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After further inspection it seems that the sale of certificates (Gutscheine) is not being prohibited, nor is the sale of the 10,000 miles gained by recommending the credit card (Freundschaftswerbung). There is currently only one auction, which was recently opened for 40,000 miles worth of award tickets.

I sent a warning message to the seller, that other auctions have been pulled. I wonder what, if anything happened to the sellers. I wonder if eBay shared contact information with Lufthansa.
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Old Feb 3, 03, 7:50 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cbellero:
(...)
I wonder if eBay shared contact information with Lufthansa.
</font>
If they would do so w/o any official (legal) judge's decision, they (eBay) will be in big trouble.

Btw, eBay has cancelled many LH award ticket auctions in the past, but only by request of LH.

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Old Feb 3, 03, 8:47 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Berki:
If they would do so w/o any official (legal) judge's decision, they (eBay) will be in big trouble.

Btw, eBay has cancelled many LH award ticket auctions in the past, but only by request of LH.

</font>

Be aware, that ebay is an US firm with their basically non existant privacy laws.
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Old Feb 3, 03, 11:17 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by peter42:

Be aware, that ebay is an US firm with their basically non existant privacy laws.
</font>
I am certainly no lawyer,but I do believe that even though they are a US firm, they are trading in Germany with offices in Germany hence they fall under German law for their German subsidiary, Ebay.de. The below is fron their AGB (Allgemeine Geschaeftsbedingungen ) posted on Ebay.de:

Sofern es sich bei dem Nutzer um einen Kaufmann im Sinne des Handelsgesetzbuches, ein öffentlich-rechtliches Sondervermögen oder eine juristische Person des öffentlichen Rechts handelt, ist Berlin ausschließlicher Gerichtsstand für alle aus dem Nutzungsvertrag und diesen AGB entstehenden Streitigkeiten.


[This message has been edited by JohnG (edited 02-03-2003).]
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Old Feb 3, 03, 11:27 am
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The "German language" (= Austrian, Swiss, German) sites eBay branch is based in Bern, Switzerland.
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Old Feb 3, 03, 11:28 am
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ebay Deutschland ist eine Zweigniederlassung der rechtlich in der Schweiz domizilierten (und im Handelsregister eingetragenen) ebay Schweiz.

Betreiberin der Websites www.ebay.de, www.ebay.at und www.ebay.ch:

eBay International AG
Bubenbergplatz 5
CH-3011 Bern
Direktor: Michael van Swaaij
Firmennummer: CH-035.3.023.263-7 Handelsregister Bern-Mittelland

Zweigniederlassung in Deutschland:

eBay International AG
Zweigniederlassung Deutschland
Albert-Einstein-Ring 2-6
D-14532 Kleinmachnow
Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Potsdam, HRB-Nr.: 16368 P

Ebay Schweiz ist rechtlich (und haftungsmässig) eine selbständige schweizerische Aktien-Gesellschaft, deren Aktien mehrheitlich in USA (ebay USA) Besitz sind.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 02-03-2003).]
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Old Feb 3, 03, 1:40 pm
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good news from LH IMO. Then a few more award seats will be left open because certainly a few sellers won`t fly themselves. On the other hand if they as a SEN or FTL will fly, their status will give them priority over non *Gold members on LH awards.
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Old Feb 3, 03, 4:06 pm
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Ebay gives itself very broad rights, what to do with your data:
http://pages.ebay.de/help/community/png-priv.html

"1.Ich willige ein, dass die personenbezogenen Daten, die von mir im Rahmen des Registrierungsverfahrens, bei der Anbahnung und Abwicklung eines Vertragsabschlusses auf den Websites eBay.de, eBay.at und eBay.ch im Rahmen des Bewertungssystem, der persönlichen Einstellungen oder den eBay Cafés angegeben oder aktualisiert werden, von der eBay International AG, Bubenbergplatz 5, CH-3011 Bern, Schweiz, erhoben, an die eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose 95125, USA, weitergeleitet und auf den Servern der eBay Inc, 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose 95125, USA, gespeichert werden. Ferner willige ich ein, dass die eBay Inc., die eBay International AG und die eBay GmbH, Marktplatz 1, 14532 Europarc-Dreilinden (im folgenden zusammen als "eBay" bezeichnet) diese Daten zur Begründung, Durchführung und Abwicklung meines Nutzungsverhältnisses mit der eBay International AG verarbeiten und nutzen. Ich willige zu diesem Zweck auch in die Übermittlung meiner Daten zwischen den genannten eBay-Gesellschaften ein. Ferner willige ich ein, dass andere eBay-Gesellschaften, die Betreiber weiterer eBay-Websites (wie z.B.: eBay.com, eBay.co.uk, eBay.co.jp, eBay.ca, eBay.com.au oder eine andere eBay-Website) sind, Zugriff auf die bei der eBay Inc. gespeicherten Daten haben und diese verarbeiten und nutzen können. Eine Liste der Betreibergesellschaften finden Sie hier.
....
7. Ich stimme zu, dass eBay außerdem, soweit dies erforderlich ist, meine personenbezogenen Daten zur Wahrung überwiegender Interessen an der Aufklärung eines Missbrauchs der eBay Handelsplattform und zur Rechtsverfolgung über das Ende des Nutzungsverhältnisses hinaus verarbeiten, nutzen und an Strafverfolgungsbehörden sowie in ihren Rechten verletzte Dritte übermitteln darf, wenn zu dokumentierende tatsächliche Anhaltspunkte für einen solchen Missbrauch der eBay-Handelsplattform, insbesondere durch Einstellung rechtswidriger Artikel, vorliegen."

Especially 7 does not even require a court decision, just a company complaining you are violating their rights, that is clearly non compliant with German privacy laws.
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Old Feb 3, 03, 9:21 pm
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For all of you interesting in M&M and eBay, here are some links:

Selling M&M miles on eBay
M&M Certificates on eBay.de
eBay & M&M
 
Old Feb 3, 03, 11:14 pm
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peter42,

they can write down in their terms & conditions whatever they want. This means not necessarily that it will last in front of a court. This not the GDR.
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Old Feb 4, 03, 1:07 am
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I have to agree with Berki on this one. It is absolutely ridiculous that eBay is enforcing LH's rules, from a legal standpoint.

As long as the sale of miles is not illegal under German laws, as I believe Germany is still the legal location of the program, eBay has no right to share the information with Lufthansa or listen to the instructions of LH.

I wonder if they have any contractual relationship - and because of this eBay follows LH instructions. Are there any kind of joint marketing programs between the two of them?
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Old Feb 4, 03, 2:38 am
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Berki and cbellero of course you are right, butonce LH gets the information you are in trouble and unfortunately ebay is known for being very company friendly and consumer unfriendly.
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Old Feb 4, 03, 2:54 am
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OK, let me clarify some points:

- I, too don't like those auctions
- It's indeed against Lufthansa's terms & conditions
but not necessarily against eBay's
- Therefore eBay shouldn't play the executer on behalf of Lufthansa. LH should go the same way as everyone else has to go in a similar case: the legal way.


But I have to agree with peter42: Once Lh got the account informations, the seller will be in big trouble (deservedly).
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Old Feb 6, 03, 8:20 am
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How would LH get the seller's info? From eBay? I doubt it.

FWIW there are HEAPS of USA airline upgrade certs, award points, First Class tickets anywhere on earth etc (using miles of course!) openly sold on eBay who simply do not CARE it seems. And most seem to now run "closed auctions" where no-one else, even other bidders can see buyer or bidding.

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[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 02-06-2003).]
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