htb

Absolutely -- and lacking the information when I'll leave the country in question again he cannot even start to assess whether I need a visa or not.

I think the question boils down to whether I'm allowed to leave Germany without a passport, instead only carrying a Personalausweis. Equally important is the question whether the boarder control -- when leaving Germany -- has any business asking me where I'm headed. I fail to see the connection to "safeguarding the German borders."

I'm very much against being asked where I'm going to. It opens the potential for abuse.

To answer other poster's question: I'm a native German and certainly don't look "exotic". It's been the second time in 10 years that I was asked where I was going by border control when leaving Germany / Austria / Swiss.

Thanks for all the input so far.

Cheers,


HTB.

buckel2

You better cut your hair before planning a journey to either SIN or BKK



NATIONAL GERMANY (DE) /DESTINATION SINGAPORE (SG)

VISA DESTINATION SINGAPORE (SG)

...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT (MUST BE VALID AT LEAST 6 MONTHS ON ARRIVAL) REQUIRED.

ALSO ACCEPTED: "KINDERAUSWEIS" (MUST BE VALID AT LEAST 6 MONTHS
ON ARRIVAL) ISSUED TO MINORS, PROVIDED CONTAINING A PHOTO OF
THE CHILD.

VISA NOT REQUIRED PROVIDED OBTAINING A SOCIAL VISIT PASS
ON ARRIVAL FOR A STAY OF 14 OR 30 DAYS (FREE OF CHARGE).
EXTENSION OF STAY UP TO 3 MONTHS MAY BE POSSIBLE.
FEE FOR EXTENSION OF SOCIAL VISIT PASS IS SGD 40.-.

VISITOR MUST HOLD:
- CONFIRMED RETURN OR ONWARD TICKET (NOT APPLICABLE TO AIRLINE
STAFF TRAVELLING ON REDUCED FARE/STANDBY TICKETS OR TO
MDTI


ENTRY MAY BE REFUSED TO "HIPPY" TYPES.





NATIONAL GERMANY (DE) /DESTINATION THAILAND (TH)

VISA DESTINATION THAILAND (TH)

...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT (MUST BE VALID AT LEAST 30 DAYS AND IN GOOD CONDITION)
REQUIRED. ALSO ACCEPTED:
- IDENTITY CARD ("KINDERAUSWEIS") ISSUED TO MINORS.

VISA NOT REQUIRED FOR A MAX. STAY OF 30 DAYS, PROVIDED
COMING FOR TOURISTIC PURPOSES. EXTENSION UP TO 10 DAYS IS
POSSIBLE. FEE THB 500.- (1 PHOTO REQUIRED).
IF PASSPORT IS VALID LESS THAN 30 DAYS, STAY WILL ONLY BE
PERMITTED UP TO THE VALIDITY OF THE PASSPORT.
NOTE: THERE IS A MAX. LIMIT OF A TOTAL OF 90 DAYS WITHIN ANY
6 MONTH PERIOD.

IT IS RECOMMENDED TO HOLD ONWARD/RETURN TICKETS.

MDTI
IF HOLDING APEC BUSINESS TRAVEL CARD TOGETHER WITH PASSPORT:
VISA NOT REQUIRED.

ENTRY MAY BE REFUSED IF OF "HIPPY" APPEARANCE.

Passenger_by_Passion

You were perfectly right! It is none of the German Bordercontrols business whatsoever, whether you were admitted into any foreign country.

The may check your identity, as soon as you cross the German borderline.
As a German citizen you may do that at an time by land, water or air using

1. passport

or

2. ID-card (Personalausweis)

or

3. Binnenschifferschein (certain ID card for boat personel)

or even a couple of other ID cards....

Everything else they told you is B.S.

I anticipate the German bordercontrol has enough to do to keep foreign criminals out of Germany and consider it a waste of tax money, if they occupy with the job of making sure that German nationals can enter other countries.

For further information you may read the exact rules here (German):

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bu...988/gesamt.pdf

NickB

Surely there would be the obstacle of EU free movement rules.

Flying Lawyer

Surely not. EU free movement rule allows the citizen of the EU memberstates to move freely in all other memberstates. A EU memberstate is not allowed to discriminate a citizen of any other memberstate. This concept does not obilgate a member state to let its own citizens depart into any other memberstate (any member of the EU is entitled to discriminate its own citizens). Sec. 10 of the German passport code stipulates that Germans under certain circumstances are not allowed to depart from Germany.

larsll

Almost like Star Alliance. Our friends the US carriers are dicriminating UA*G and US*G members by not allowing them access to the lounge, whereas all other *G members are let in.

alex0683de

I get asked all the time. Probably about 30% of trips or so. And as for asking where I'm coming from, that happens something like 70% of the time. Must be that I'm 23, because of that I fall into a demographic that must be treated with the utmost suspicion.

At least I don't look "hippy"! But in all seriousness, the people that are let into Thailand and Singapore on a regular basis show that that rule is soundly ignored in both countries.

Anyway, if you want to avoid border guards asking you questions, just sign up for the pilot program at FRA where you can pass through an automated passport gate with an iris scan. Works like a charm, and you get to skip the queues! Only works at FRA so far, unfortunately. The office where you can sign up is in a little box in Hall A of Terminal 1 in FRA, near the bag drop for Self Check-In. I highly recommend it!

NickB

Well, dear Flying Lawyer, sounds to me like you need a refresher course on EU free movement law . It has always been the case under ECJ caselaw and has been explicitly codified in Directive 2004/38/EC that the right to free movement includes the right to leave one's own country, with the corollary that a Member State has a duty to give its citizens appropriate travel documents, unless that Member State is in a position to invoke one of the grounds of derogation from free movement. See Article 4 of the Directive on the right of exit.

cfischer

I always show my 'ID' and never had any problems (in FRA and other other european airports such as AMS and CDG)

Flying Lawyer

Thanks a lot, interesting. I was not aware of this. The German rule in sec. 10 of the passport code allows to deny departure and (sec. 8) seize or withdraw a passport (or any other travel permit) if certain facts justify certain assumption made in sec. 7 (criminal action, alimony, conscription etc). I always understood this as (allowed) discrimination of its own nationals.

weero

&
You are right, only rogue states would require their citizens to
produce a visa to return .

NickB

No, no 'reverse discrimination' allowed in this situation, but there is a public policy derogation from free movement that a Member State could invoke and could probably justify the s10 situations. Although on the face of it the directive only speaks of the public policy derogation for entry and residence in another Member State, I cannot imagine the Court not considering that it also applies to right of exit.

alex0683de

Well, since those visas are for people who have renounced their citizenship at some time to take on a different citizenship but are now grovelling to come back, I would say it's OK.