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-   -   New "improvements" of M&M 1 April 2006 (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufthansa-austrian-swiss-brussels-lot-other-partners-miles-more/508854-new-improvements-m-m-1-april-2006-a.html)

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 5:16 am


Originally Posted by Tyrolean
I know FTL who swiched about 10.000 Euro of travelbudget (Yes you can be FTL with that budget and not SEN!) for lower reasons.

10,000 EUR = 4x ZSPEC MUC-LAX = 4x 27,000 miles = 108,000 miles = SEN.

nixande Apr 4, 06 5:28 am

a) a lot of smaller flights and not the long ones
b) being a German means afair >13x000 miles to become SEN

Grog Apr 4, 06 5:52 am

deleted

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 6:10 am


Originally Posted by nixande
b) being a German means afair >13x000 miles to become SEN

Nobody said everybody spending 10k will be SEN. I just said that it's not true that nobody can be SEN for 10k.

Actually, you can be SEN ex Germany for less than half that money. A typical V fare MUC-LAX averages at EUR 700 and brings in 15,000 status miles. 7 flights in a calendar year will easily bring you over the 100,000 miles threshold, that's EUR 4900. And V is even upgradable.

If you insist on a German mailing address, add 2 more flights for EUR 1400.

DFW-SEN Apr 4, 06 6:14 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
That's just not true. The unfrequent Z flyer (me, for example) likes status, because he also has cheap domestic and European flights (T,E,U). He (me) also likes award miles and vouchers, as he likes to upgrade his unfrequent Z flights to F (when there's space) or to book the occasional F award trip for himself or family & friends. So he (me) gives his loyalty (revenue & profit) to LH instead of always choosing the airline/alliance with the cheapest Z fare.

...

So my guess is that LH understands that this special type of "ZSHOT" (me) is important for their bottom line. That's why they hand out the perks to keep the ZSHOT (me) loyal. Also consider that ZSHOTs like me are decision-makers. We are free to decide when to fly, what COS to fly and with carrier to chosse. So we are more easily lost to the competition than a business traveller working for a huge multinational with negotiated fares and many internal travel rules. Since I VOLUNTARILY give LH more than 15,000 EUR of my private money in annual revenue for 12 longhaul seats that would probably stay empty (or filled with upgraders) at least half of the time, I guess I might not be such a bad customer after all.


I fully agree with you and you describe exactly my behaviour / decision process for my 12 annul trips from DFW to Germany.

Cheers, Stefan

DFW-SEN Apr 4, 06 6:17 am


Originally Posted by Tyrolean
BTW what are the costs of an FTL?
....
- Priority check-in - no cost
- Lounge use - only LH-Biz-Lounges. The lounges are there anyway so only the food (which food) and drinks consumed count (Average 5 Euro)
If you distribute all the fixed lounge costs on all Biz-Pax and FTL it wont be hight as well.

If they give to many people acess to these perks, there are reaal cost asociated, as they need to increase capacity or higly devaluate the value for the "higher yield" FTLs.

Cheers, Stefan

Volasia Apr 4, 06 6:18 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
Nobody said everybody spending 10k will be SEN. I just said that it's not true that nobody can be SEN for 10k.

Actually, you can be SEN ex Germany for less than half that money. A typical V fare MUC-LAX averages at EUR 700 and brings in 15,000 status miles. 7 flights in a calendar year will easily bring you over the 100,000 miles threshold, that's EUR 4900. And V is even upgradable.

If you insist on a German mailing address, add 2 more flights for EUR 1400.

OK, but who goes to LA, 7 times a year in Y (so in theory leisure trips).
Anyway, your point is a fair point, and it is actually far more easy to be silver or gold with M&M than let's say BA. There, you have no chance at all of being silver unless you buy flexible tickets (B,Y)

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 6:23 am


Originally Posted by Fly-Swiss
OK, but who goes to LA, 7 times a year in Y (so in theory leisure trips).

I did. For several years. And friends of mine I know keep doing it until today.

Luckily, my years of Y are over. :D

And since your post concedes that we are a rare species, you actually fuel my argument. ;) To keep us, the rare species, loyal (as we are paying significant $$$ for seats with a high probability of staying empty otherwise), LH has to give a little sumthin extra. And as long as they keep doing that, I'll stick with them.

totti Apr 4, 06 6:28 am


Originally Posted by Fly-Swiss
OK, but who goes to LA, 7 times a year in Y (so in theory leisure trips).
Anyway, your point is a fair point, and it is actually far more easy to be silver or gold with M&M than let's say BA. There, you have no chance at all of being silver unless you buy flexible tickets (B,Y)

Just as a side note: if it just comes down to status BA Gold is much more easy to earn than SEN. You can buy cheap (or lets say restricted) C tickets e.g. FRA-LHR for less than 250 EUR. Each of this return trips will earn 80 point and with a non UK/USA address you only need 5 of this trips to be silver (~1250 EUR) or 15 from zero to Gold (~1250 EUR + 2500 EUR = 3750 EUR).

nixande Apr 4, 06 6:37 am

Being able to access a oneowrld lounge every time you fly even though not on BA is a reason for me to consider going for gold.

While you need 1200 points (400 for silver and 800 additional for gold) at the first time, you only need the 800 points to retain it.

And if you have one RTW ticket in business, you can make silver, gold and renew gold in one trip with a crazy itenerary - or make it a bit less problematic.

On contrair to that you need to fly once 13x000 miles to get it but after that you only need it every two years. But looking at the restrictions for SEN I am actually going for BA Gold instead.

They don't have enough flights for example inner German, but if I fly from HAm to bigger German airports, they usually have a BA lounge available. ;)

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 6:38 am

I remember flying MUC-xFRA-xSFO-LAX-SYD-xSFO-xFRA-MUC on UA in C (upgraded from Y with 1 op-up and 2 SWUs) in April 2004 for about EUR 1000. If I had taken this trip during UA's annual double EQM promo period, I'd have risen from zero to *G (PremEx) with this ticket alone.

SleepOverGreenland Apr 4, 06 7:33 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
That's just not true. The unfrequent Z flyer (me, for example) likes status(...) the profit is considerable simply BECAUSE that C seat would otherwise have stayed empty with a significant probability.
(...) Since I VOLUNTARILY give LH more than 15,000 EUR of my private money in annual revenue for 12 longhaul seats that would probably stay empty (or filled with upgraders) at least half of the time, I guess I might not be such a bad customer after all.

Although I agree in general with your statement, I slightly disagree with your assumption of empty (unsold) C seats. It happens just to often, that about 2 weeks ahead of a requested flight some of my employees (just M&M or FTL) can't get a seat anymore in paid C. Sold out - so sorry. No problem for HONs and SENs and maybe LH keeps some free seats for this group and the last minute bookings - I don't know. But I know for sure, that we have to plan very carefully and long time ahead for our non-frequent M&Ms and FTLs travelling, e.g. with optional bookings. Based on our experience this has been true for several destinations in USA, including SFO, ORD, ATL, MIA, DEN, IAD.

Starbucks Apr 4, 06 7:57 am


Originally Posted by totti
Just as a side note: if it just comes down to status BA Gold is much more easy to earn than SEN. You can buy cheap (or lets say restricted) C tickets e.g. FRA-LHR for less than 250 EUR. Each of this return trips will earn 80 point and with a non UK/USA address you only need 5 of this trips to be silver (~1250 EUR) or 15 from zero to Gold (~1250 EUR + 2500 EUR = 3750 EUR).

IMHO it doesnt matter which programm, if you are smart enough to understand the rules and keep yourself informed about any possible discount-, RTW-, ex XXX-fares, gaining status is easy and affordable - IF you want it and are willig to pay for it.

Concerning the recent changes:
There might be some cool Consulting guys out there who are mad that their company doesnt pay C anymore and they are going to loose their twice weekly SEN-Lounge Happening plus C check-in. But as stated before - times changed.

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 8:05 am


Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
Although I agree in general with your statement, I slightly disagree with your assumption of empty (unsold) C seats. It happens just to often, that about 2 weeks ahead of a requested flight some of my employees (just M&M or FTL) can't get a seat anymore in paid C. Sold out - so sorry. No problem for HONs and SENs and maybe LH keeps some free seats for this group and the last minute bookings - I don't know. But I know for sure, that we have to plan very carefully and long time ahead for our non-frequent M&Ms and FTLs travelling, e.g. with optional bookings. Based on our experience this has been true for several destinations in USA, including SFO, ORD, ATL, MIA, DEN, IAD.

I agree, and that's why I said that seats stay empty on about HALF of the flights. The other half is indeed sold out, which obviously isn't too bad for LH in any case.LH could resolve this problem by taking your full-fare C booking and calling a few ZSHOTs, offering them 500 EUR or similar to change their flight date. They gave me 500 EUR for flying to LAX on Saturday instead of Sunday on an O award. So it's not impossible.

Volasia Apr 4, 06 8:07 am


Originally Posted by totti
Just as a side note: if it just comes down to status BA Gold is much more easy to earn than SEN. You can buy cheap (or lets say restricted) C tickets e.g. FRA-LHR for less than 250 EUR. Each of this return trips will earn 80 point and with a non UK/USA address you only need 5 of this trips to be silver (~1250 EUR) or 15 from zero to Gold (~1250 EUR + 2500 EUR = 3750 EUR).

Thank you for this info, I didn't know. I might consider BA in the future...

SmilingBoy Apr 4, 06 9:25 am


Originally Posted by totti
Just as a side note: if it just comes down to status BA Gold is much more easy to earn than SEN. You can buy cheap (or lets say restricted) C tickets e.g. FRA-LHR for less than 250 EUR. Each of this return trips will earn 80 point and with a non UK/USA address you only need 5 of this trips to be silver (~1250 EUR) or 15 from zero to Gold (~1250 EUR + 2500 EUR = 3750 EUR).

I had no idea, but indeed, you can get DUS-LHR-DUS for 222 in business class. Now if I were somebody doing mileage runs... But actually, I rather stick to the Eurostar to get to London.

SmilingBoy.

SleepOverGreenland Apr 4, 06 11:42 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
I agree, and that's why I said that seats stay empty on about HALF of the flights. The other half is indeed sold out, which obviously isn't too bad for LH in any case.LH could resolve this problem by taking your full-fare C booking and calling a few ZSHOTs, offering them 500 EUR or similar to change their flight date. They gave me 500 EUR for flying to LAX on Saturday instead of Sunday on an O award. So it's not impossible.

No word against your assumption, that HALF of the flights may have empty seats or would have even more empty seats without ZSHOTs.

But still on the heavy loaded flights, I assume, there are already some ZSHOTS and ISHOTS (upgraders) on many of those. Still C may become closed and they do not sell any C ticket anymore to a M&M or FTL. It means, LH may loose that business to another airline or might be still lucky, if one can route through another airport with LH (e.g. PDX to SFO worked for us twice). In case they do not reserve a few seats for last minute SENs and HONs they have to find volunteers, of course. But they do not sell further full fare C seats to low yield customers and look for a volunteer ZSHOT or ISHOT. And of course they do not sell a F ticket in a sold out F cabin, even having some ASHOTs and OSHOTs in there. Who may probably volunteer to another flight, if they get a few eVouchers.

Anyway, all the discussions in this thread are based on the 0401 M&M changes and the value of particular customer groups. I find some discussions very "interesting". I mean, does anyone really believe, that LH doesn't know, what they do. If a business entity introduces changes it is well known since decades, that those changes WILL HAVE impacts on the one end and impacts in the other end. Some may benefit, whereas some others may not.

For sure, a profitable service organization like LH is able to analyze and balance their introduced changes against their existing data base. Nothing is done without thinking and rethinking. I would trust LH, that they indeed know very well, what they do. Some may like it, some not.

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 11:56 am


Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
And of course they do not sell a F ticket in a sold out F cabin, even having some ASHOTs and OSHOTs in there. Who may probably volunteer to another flight, if they get a few eVouchers.

They did in my case, as LH called me (the OSHOT) up and gave me 500 EUR for flying one day earlier, so they could sell another F ticket in the sold out cabin.

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 12:06 pm


Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
But still on the heavy loaded flights, I assume, there are already some ZSHOTS and ISHOTS (upgraders) on many of those. Still C may become closed and they do not sell any C ticket anymore to a M&M or FTL.

I thought about this and came to the conclusion that pax on C fares w/o status aren't "loyal" as in "big profit bringers". They either don't fly much at all (thus no status) or are simply looking for the best deal/routing (thus randomly switching between airlines and alliances). So LH sticks with the loyal ZSHOT SEN instead of selling one more C ticket to a "one-time" pax and investing time and money to make additional room for that pax. As you said, LH will always make room for a C pax with SEN or HON status. And as my experience shows, they also (try to) make room for F fare pax when the F cabin is already fully booked.

Of course, inventory management will try to do their best to sell just the right amount of seats to Z-SHOTS, O- and I-SHOTS, E,U,T-SHOTS etc. in order to not lose full-fare pax because of sold-out cabins. It's all about predicting loads, and sometimes, those predictions aren't just entirely correct.

SleepOverGreenland Apr 4, 06 12:16 pm


Originally Posted by flysurfer
They did in my case, as LH called me (the OSHOT) up and gave me 500 EUR for flying one day earlier, so they could sell another F ticket in the sold out cabin.

That is good to know. I didn't experience this situation as HON so far, but ended up with a sold out F cabin as a SEN more than once. So looking forward to see, what will happen in such a situation next. However, a sold out F cabin became less likely after the 080104 changes.

On your second post: You might be right with your thoughts. Luckily we do not drive this business and let the specialits take the responsibility for all that loading and booking science.

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 12:41 pm


Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
That is good to know. I didn't experience this situation as HON so far, but ended up with a sold out F cabin as a SEN more than once. So looking forward to see, what will happen in such a situation next. However, a sold out F cabin became less likely after the 080104 changes.

Btw, regarding revenue vs. profit, HONs can we "worse" than all Z,E,U,T-SHOTS combined by reserving (and getting) a guaranteed C award seat on an almost sold-out flight. Chances are that LH could have sold that seat to a full-fare C pax - maybe even to one of your employees. ;) Again, LH prefers to please the long-term profit pax (aka HON) over a one-time profit bringer. So here we have it: the HONSHOT traveling on an award ticket and occupying a full fare revenue seat. :D

andre1970 Apr 4, 06 1:40 pm

Everyonce in a while we have this (interesting IMO) discusssion here. I agree with flysurfer and others. Here's what I wrote a couple of months ago...


(sorry, no Wolf pic this time)

roundtheworld Apr 4, 06 2:23 pm


Originally Posted by andre1970
Everyonce in a while we have this (interesting IMO) discusssion here. I agree with flysurfer and others. Here's what I wrote a couple of months ago...


(sorry, no Wolf pic this time)


Originally Posted by andre1970
1. I don't want to enter the discussion "which class of service should an airline improve?".

2. Let me remind you nevertheless, that the pax you refer to pay for fle-xi-bi-li-ty, and not for the chair.
Try to interpret the price difference of a fully flexible (transpac or transatlantic) Y ticket with a full fare C ticket. Surprise - surprise! It is very close to the price of a Z fare! This is how much an airline prices the difference in in-flight service. And this is the reason why you actually see people paying 5000 for an "economy" ticket while others pay 2000 for a "business" ticket on the same flight:
Because your disesteemed Z-fare guy who flies business does not fly for business. He would however gladly pay a 1500-2000 cap to have a better chair and decent catering for his summer holiday trip (instead of being stacked with the plebs) which he planned at least 50 days in advance.

Bottomline: What is the most effective pricing policy for an airline? Managing to make someone pay 2500 (restricted business) instead of 500 (restricted economy), or make someone pay 6000 (flexible business) instead of 4000 (flexible economy)? In other words, convincing someone to fly (let alone get him to pay 2000 more) when they do not have to, is IMO much more remarkable than getting someone (who would fly anyway...) to choose better conditions of (unavoidable) travel.
Because the guy who would pay 6000 (flexible business) instead of 500 (restricted economy) is not yet born...

Cheerio
A.

there are passengers who actually do this. I could go for a resticted Y but choose F instead. No Z on my routing though. If I had a Z routing i would maybe reconsider, and upgrade to F but not sure, as my routing is usually 90% full in C and F. And even as a HON I don't have upgrade guarantee to F.

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 4:52 pm


Originally Posted by roundtheworld
there are passengers who actually do this. I could go for a resticted Y but choose F instead. No Z on my routing though. If I had a Z routing i would maybe reconsider, and upgrade to F but not sure, as my routing is usually 90% full in C and F. And even as a HON I don't have upgrade guarantee to F.

And that's why you are HON+++ ^

I have to admit that after my monthly income has climbed into the six figures, I'll probably buy F fares or charter jets for my personal travel enjoyment, as well. Until then, I'll stay a lowly ZSHOT by choice, as I simply don't feel comfortable spending close to 10,000 EUR for a marginally better seat and a serving of caviar.

bertheike Apr 4, 06 4:55 pm


Originally Posted by flysurfer
..... offering them 500 EUR or similar to change their flight date. They gave me 500 EUR for flying to LAX on Saturday instead of Sunday on an O award. So it's not impossible.

May I ask you, if they called/contacted you ? Or did you ask them ?

flysurfer Apr 4, 06 4:58 pm


Originally Posted by bertheike
May I ask you, if they called/contacted you ? Or did you ask them ?

They called me.

totti Apr 6, 06 8:36 am


Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
For sure, a profitable service organization like LH is able to analyze and balance their introduced changes against their existing data base. Nothing is done without thinking and rethinking. I would trust LH, that they indeed know very well, what they do. Some may like it, some not.

Had the same thought. LH didn't reduce the miles needed to become a german based FTL/SEN just because they want to please some pax. They were able to analyse earning behaviour of german pax after the last M&M changes (8/1/2004) for more than one year. It's much likely that they know pretty sure how may M&M members will qualify for status after the 4/1/2006 changes. Probably there are some mileage runners out there who try to earn status after this changes, but is might be a manageable group of people.


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