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-   Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, Brussels, LOT and Other Partners | Miles & More (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufthansa-austrian-swiss-brussels-lot-other-partners-miles-more-495/)
-   -   New "improvements" of M&M 1 April 2006 (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufthansa-austrian-swiss-brussels-lot-other-partners-miles-more/508854-new-improvements-m-m-1-april-2006-a.html)

Volasia Jan 3, 06 10:10 am


Originally Posted by totti
As you mentioned was... So now they have M&M, too or will get soon to be correct. :rolleyes:

You cannot imagine how pleased we are :(

totti Jan 3, 06 10:19 am


Originally Posted by Fly-Swiss
You cannot imagine how pleased we are :(

Yes I can, this I have an STC-Account as well and I really liked it. :( So now it's over but gives my m&m account a boost...

Flying Lawyer Jan 3, 06 10:55 am


Originally Posted by Fly-Swiss
...I have to say... have you ever tried LX or SQ.... that is a real IFE... not just like LH's main screen (one for all). When are they going to upgrade their planes?... :mad:


Have you ever tried LX on regional C-Class in flights in Europe. Well, LX eg. from Duesseldorf to Warsaw via ZRH is cheap compared to the direct LH fligt but they fly with silly little planes and there is no real difference between Eco and C (but the mileage...). So there are ups and downs everywhere...

Grog Jan 4, 06 1:43 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
LH has AVOD and wireless Connexion broadband Internet access in C and F...

As for LH longhaul Y: It's terrible, we all know it's terrible, we all keep repeating it's terrible, and we keep suggesting to everybody that it's to be avoided...

First, HNY, all. I just got off of a USAir PHL-FRA flight in Y. A330. Very enjoyable, too; solid service for eco. And AVOD IFE at every Y seat--I can't even remember how many movies we were able to choose from. Why anyone would choose LH Y transatlantic, I just can't understand. With M&M, just as with LH Y, the market deserves what it gets.

Volasia Jan 4, 06 2:26 am


Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Have you ever tried LX on regional C-Class in flights in Europe. Well, LX eg. from Duesseldorf to Warsaw via ZRH is cheap compared to the direct LH fligt but they fly with silly little planes and there is no real difference between Eco and C (but the mileage...). So there are ups and downs everywhere...

I did actually. In both LH and LX. I didn't see much difference between one and the other, but I agree that this is not an oustanding experience. Both LH and LX have empty middle seat in A320 for C. No such thing in smaller aircrafts.

Hans Dampf Jan 4, 06 2:46 am

The Frequent Flyer Program is at the very bottom of the evaluation proces?
 

Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Have you ever tried LX on regional C-Class in flights in Europe. Well, LX eg. from Duesseldorf to Warsaw via ZRH is cheap compared to the direct LH fligt but they fly with silly little planes and there is no real difference between Eco and C (but the mileage...). So there are ups and downs everywhere...

Och, och, och... The main point seems to be the mileage accrual. Well, this comment is completely opposite to what you said in posting #110, isn't it? Didn't you say there that the FFP is on the very bottom? :eek:



Again: I could not agree more. I ask the overall value an airline gives me and the FFP is at the very bottom of my personal evaluation. - Network in-Europe and ex-Germany - Reliability - Seats (in F) on long distance - Partner Airlines - On board and ground service - FFP
Och, och, och... Nevertheless how bad L-L (former M&M) is, there are always people attacking others who show the negative points. I wonder how many undercover LH agents we have in the forum :td:


By the way: Why do people fly business class if there is no difference to economy? Doesn't make sense to me - unless it is for the mileage. But as we know, the FFP is at the very bottom for some of us. :rolleyes:

Volasia Jan 4, 06 3:07 am


Originally Posted by Hans Dampf
By the way: Why do people fly business class if there is no difference to economy? Doesn't make sense to me - unless it is for the mileage. But as we know, the FFP is at the very bottom for some of us. :rolleyes:

M&M is not all bad, the mileage in C is very good (compared to let's say AC)... :)

About the product, I think it is better on a A320 or 737 but I wouldn't pay for it "myself" if it wasn't for an "urgent" need of Status miles :)

tcswede Jan 4, 06 3:27 am


Originally Posted by Hans Dampf

Och, och, och... Nevertheless how bad L-L (former M&M) is, there are always people attacking others who show the negative points. I wonder how many undercover LH agents we have in the forum :td:

Some people have different expectations from "their" airline of choice - and are by that resonable satisfied with what they get.
Others can not do anything else than constantly complain about everything and anything.
What is negative for you might not be negative for others.
And that seems to be something you have difficult to accept - anybody who is not wining constantly is a undercover LH agent / employee or any other description that you have used in the past to insult thosewho do not share your opinion.

If it is all that bad - why not walk away - or did the job in Japan not work out for you ? At least there you would not need M&M.

Cheers

Thomas

DFW-SEN Jan 4, 06 4:00 am


Originally Posted by Grog
First, HNY, all. I just got off of a USAir PHL-FRA flight in Y. A330. Very enjoyable, too; solid service for eco. And AVOD IFE at every Y seat--I can't even remember how many movies we were able to choose from. Why anyone would choose LH Y transatlantic, I just can't understand. With M&M, just as with LH Y, the market deserves what it gets.

Its a long time since my last longhaul flight in Y, but in November I "enjoyed" US Air in their Envoy class from LGW to CLT. One of the worst flights in my live by all aspects from checkin until arriavl. I can't understand how anybody would ever fly with them in C.

Cheers, Stefan

totti Jan 4, 06 4:29 am


Originally Posted by Hans Dampf
By the way: Why do people fly business class if there is no difference to economy? Doesn't make sense to me - unless it is for the mileage. But as we know, the FFP is at the very bottom for some of us. :rolleyes:

Would you buy an C-ticket across europe just to get this couple of miles? I won't... until you don't get that much more and it will never be the best deal if you need a mileage run, which I'd never do, anyway (as still posted above by others)

So the only reason is, that it is a little more relaxed, food is a little better and what counts most to me, you can just arrive 15 min before takeoff and will still be on your plain

Flying Lawyer Jan 4, 06 4:31 am


Originally Posted by Hans Dampf
Och, och, och... The main point seems to be the mileage accrual. Well, this comment is completely opposite to what you said in posting #110, isn't it? Didn't you say there that the FFP is on the very bottom? :eek: :

Watch my lips: LX C-Class is cheap compared to LH direct flight on that route. Allthough the only noticable difference between Eco and C is the mileage. Understood?



Originally Posted by Hans Dampf
Och, och, och... Nevertheless how bad L-L (former M&M) is, there are always people attacking others who show the negative points. I wonder how many undercover LH agents we have in the forum :td:

Surprise, surprise: Anybody who does not share in weepy lamentation is an undercover LH agent. Watch my lips again: I fly 40 legs a year on LH First Class and I am very satisfied with the service they offer for my money. And I am very satisfied with the benefits of M&M (allthough this is less important).

I fully appreciate that LH tries to bump the "SEN-lights" (40 legs on strange US mileage runs in so-called domestic US or US First Class or 60 intra German domestic returns in E) out of the lounges. I would do it no different. The airline earns approx. 20 Euro (excl. taxes and VAT) on an E class domestic ticket. If all these customers get status, then status is no longer status but a giveaway and it will only displease customers paying real money for airline services.


Originally Posted by Hans Dampf
By the way: Why do people fly business class if there is no difference to economy? Doesn't make sense to me - unless it is for the mileage. But as we know, the FFP is at the very bottom for some of us. :rolleyes:

Please excuse me for being inpolite but I think you did not understand the system. The main benefit of a C-Class ticket is the possibility of unlimited changes, being there 20 minutes before takeoff and seat in 1A (that saves me 5-10 minutes when disembarking). There are some people like me who do not fly for fun once a month but on a daily basis for business and who depend on this flexibility. The difference in price between a full fare economy and C can be neglected. It can be even more neglected if you are (like me) part of a big oganisation and have negotiated Business Class fares. In fact, for us, C class on several routes is cheaper as Full Fare eco.

Cheers
T.

totti Jan 4, 06 4:39 am

I totally agree with you Flying Lawyer ^ Just forgotten to mention the advantage of flexibility in C in my post above. for me it's that naturally and also that important, that I just not thought about it... :confused:

weero Jan 4, 06 4:46 am


Originally Posted by DFW-SEN
Its a long time since my last longhaul flight in Y, but in November I "enjoyed" US Air in their Envoy class from LGW to CLT...

I think that this is very bottom line where all our discrapancies in opinion
about M&L and LH originate: the gap between LH Y and LH C (on transatlantic
routes now only) is huge. Judging LH from the SQ angle flat seat, this
is better than old NZ and TG First.
And in Y, everything on LH is miserable. Except that the cabin is clean, I give
them that.
That includes mileage accrual which is great for anything above Z (actually
ok for anything above B since the changes) and ridiculous for basic Economy.
I can hence understand why true elite flyers such as DFW-SEN or tcswede
show some affection for LH.

Originally Posted by totti
..So the only reason is, that it is a little more relaxed, food is a little better and what counts most to me, you can just arrive 15 min before takeoff and will still be on your plain

What a beautiful Freudian :) . And it describes the LH domestic C cabin
soooooo well.
But I have to confess that I am quite fond of the intra-Europe C service,
even though they always refused to give me two cakes so far...

flysurfer Jan 4, 06 4:51 am


Originally Posted by weero
...even though they always refused to give me two cakes so far...

Priceless!

totti Jan 4, 06 4:58 am


Originally Posted by weero
What a beautiful Freudian :) . And it describes the LH domestic C cabin
soooooo well.
But I have to confess that I am quite fond of the intra-Europe C service,
even though they always refused to give me two cakes so far...

Oh yeah... so I shouldn't correct it so far :D

OliverLHfan Jan 4, 06 11:03 am

Thank you Flying Lawyer for your post. Everyhting is said. So we can close this thread ?!? :D

weero Jan 4, 06 7:37 pm

[cakes]

Originally Posted by flysurfer
Priceless!

You are most welcome! But I am not making this up, I always prey for the
for leftover cakes, and they would never ever grant me a second one.
I offered them cash, my main dish, gadgets from Taiwan - all at no avail :eek: .

Originally Posted by OliverLHfan
Thank you Flying Lawyer for your post. Everyhting is said. So we can close this thread ?!? :D

Should - for the sake of politeness - Torsten71 ask for this? You
cannot really just close his thread .. sounds rude-ish to me.

Torsten71 Jan 5, 06 12:22 am


Originally Posted by weero
Should - for the sake of politeness - Torsten71 ask for this? You
cannot really just close his thread .. sounds rude-ish to me.

:D I wouldn't mind, but that's the sole decision of the mods, I think. However, it was good to see a thread I started with so many answers and views. A first-timer for me on FT.
Let's all make the best out of the changes M&L is giving to us.

Cheers,
Torsten

flysurfer Jan 5, 06 1:57 am

This thread can go on forever, because new "improvements" of M&M will go on forever - as well as their implementation and the practical consequences they have for us faithful subjects.

totti Jan 5, 06 4:05 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
This thread can go on forever, because new "improvements" of M&M will go on forever - as well as their implementation and the practical consequences they have for us faithful subjects.

As is written on m&M homepage: 'The Miles & More programme is constantly under development. To get information about all the new features and changes, please take a look at the following items.'

Let's see want's comes next.

mith Jan 5, 06 4:28 am

Hi Grog, did you see Joschka Fischer on this plane? Well, he was probably in envoy, but I am quite sure i saw him at the gate in PHL tuesday afternoon.

Well, now that segments don't count anymore, no reason not to fly germanwings instead of LH, as you definitively get more redeemable miles there than with LH ELTU fares (via payback). Maybe this new move has something to do with the 100 % takeover of euro/germanwings by LH.

The main thing I am pissed off about, is the FTL-companion in lounge thing. This will probably lead to more divorces. Well, maybe our infamous STC into M/M integration and women in leadership position specialist Kerstin R. didn't like to see those German Hausfrauen in the business lounges. Okay I am mainly pissed, because this was one of the reasons I went for status and spend the extra bucks to fly/rail LH more than neccessary and now they take this perk away even for people who earned the status previously. It would be okay to say, companions of FTL card - expiring 2/07 and 2/08 - holders will still be accepted.


Originally Posted by Grog
First, HNY, all. I just got off of a USAir PHL-FRA flight in Y. A330. Very enjoyable, too; solid service for eco. And AVOD IFE at every Y seat--I can't even remember how many movies we were able to choose from. Why anyone would choose LH Y transatlantic, I just can't understand. With M&M, just as with LH Y, the market deserves what it gets.


totti Jan 5, 06 10:19 am


Originally Posted by mith
Okay I am mainly pissed, because this was one of the reasons I went for status and spend the extra bucks to fly/rail LH more than neccessary and now they take this perk away even for people who earned the status previously. It would be okay to say, companions of FTL card - expiring 2/07 and 2/08 - holders will still be accepted.

If this is the only perk you wanna have, you should probably think of joining UA RCC. That's cheaper than doing some AirRail trips and will give you excess to much more lounges.

fradoc Jan 5, 06 12:58 pm


Originally Posted by totti
...will give you excess to much more lounges.

Nice Freudian...

Also I am quite pissed about the "Wir müssen leider draußen bleiben" (We have to stay out)-rule. I considere the lounge access as an important perk, especially if on leisure travel with my honey. Now, there is one reason less for justifying my miliomania. I wonder, if they did some stats on lounge usage (like DB does).
Clearly, SEN has been "upgraded" by devaluating FTL.
I will write a complain letter to LH, just to let them know my anger.

roundtheworld Jan 5, 06 1:21 pm


Originally Posted by Kiwi Flyer
No zeroes for me ;)

mhh didn;t you fly FRA ZRH on the 2nd so you immediatly recharged your account....

Flying Lawyer Jan 5, 06 1:31 pm


Originally Posted by mith
Okay I am mainly pissed, because this was one of the reasons I went for status and spend the extra bucks to fly/rail LH more than neccessary and now they take this perk away even for people who earned the status previously.

Guys, be serious. What is the benefit for the airline in giving valuable status to people having "to fly/rail LH more than neccessary" to reach 50k miles? And v/v: What is the benefit for customer "to fly/rail LH more than neccessary" just to impress cumstomer's honey once a year on a W or T class flight to whereever or to get two free cokes on this occaison? Hey, get a Diner's Club card or become a member of the RCC, that will give you similar (or even better) benefits.

Space in the lounges is limited, rents in the airports are expensive and the airlines cannot convert the full airport into a lounge. If space is limited, it can only be distributed between a certain number of people. And I appreciate that the airlines keep it open and comfortable for the customers spending the hell on tickets.

Cheers
T.

Grog Jan 5, 06 4:58 pm


Originally Posted by mith
Hi Grog, did you see Joschka Fischer on this plane? Well, he was probably in envoy, but I am quite sure i saw him at the gate in PHL tuesday afternoon.
...
The main thing I am pissed off about, is the FTL-companion in lounge thing. This will probably lead to more divorces.
...
It would be okay to say, companions of FTL card - expiring 2/07 and 2/08 - holders will still be accepted.

Hi mith,

No sign of Joschka or his multitude of wives :p . If he was in Envoy class, he either didn't go to or didn't stay in the Envoy lounge for any length of time. Me and the Mrs. enjoyed the light buffet right up until boarding time.

And I agree completely on your FTL-companion opinion. So many companies 'enhance' their programs after-the-fact of earning status. Not good, not fair, but somehow expected none the less.

Grog Jan 5, 06 5:12 pm


Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Guys, be serious. What is the benefit for the airline in giving valuable status to people having "to fly/rail LH more than neccessary" to reach 50k miles?
...
Space in the lounges is limited, rents in the airports are expensive and the airlines cannot convert the full airport into a lounge. If space is limited, it can only be distributed between a certain number of people. And I appreciate that the airlines keep it open and comfortable for the customers spending the hell on tickets.

Cheers
T.

We're serious. Just take us serious, please. The benefit to us was clear to LH obviously (or LH would have never been offered in the first place). And it was published, then withdrawn prematurely from us. Just as LH grandfathers SENs into a financial commitment concerning overdraft miles.

Space is limited in many airports because it's wasted (for lack of a better word) due to construction designs. Just how tall are the vast open spaces in front of and above FRA's check-in desks? Lots of heated dead space for no reason. I say space is limited only by choice of both the airport (in FRA's case, owned by LH from time to time) and by choice of the airline.

Anyway, it's not about space or rent; it's about what that mid-level customer is willing to put up with from LH. Take that to the bank...

andyZRH Jan 5, 06 5:41 pm


Originally Posted by Fly-Swiss
Well, by posting this, I was hoping somone would say: LH is going to upgrade IFE in Economy Class. But apparently not.

I hate to say this, but probably it just doesn't make sense commercially. See below... :rolleyes:


Originally Posted by Fly-Swiss
I cannot understand how they can sell longhaul tickets with such a bad product.

That's simply because the vast majority of leisure travellers always runs for the lowest fare.
No matter how much cr*p the airlines throw at them, how long the check-in lines, how surly and incompetent the staff, how tight the seats, how disgusting and scarce the food, how long the wait for the checked bags...
Maybe there's some whining to friends and family after the trip, but next time they travel they'll go for the cheapest carrier again.

weero Jan 5, 06 7:17 pm

guilt and atonement
 

Originally Posted by andyZRH
..That's simply because the vast majority of leisure travellers always runs for the lowest fare..

Yes. Lufthansa really roams that market and goes for it. And it seems to
work as for the long haul routes, there are no LCCs yet. And even if
there were, they would not have a stand against LH.

..Maybe there's some whining to friends and family after the trip, but next time they travel they'll go for the cheapest carrier again.
Of course incompetence and lack and spirit of planning are reasons why this
can happen. But they are not the only ones: paying a higher fare does not
save you from these problems. Plus - especially in Europe and Oz - pax are
confronted with a more and more mysterious market gearing: the gap between
bearable flying (that would be C and up on LH) and affordable flying gets
wider and wider. And now M&L has even de facto abolished the FFP for Y
travelers, whereas C turned into a super-luxurious class.
What I cannot explain is why they get away with it: is their market shaping power
so great that they can extort a ridiculous amount of assets from Business
travelers as they lack an alternative or is it simply market driven?
I.e. is the number of people such as I who could afford to ride in style but
not in luxury really that small?
The discrepancy in Europe is not yet as bad as here: the average transpac
D or Z class here costs 6-7 times more than the average S or T class. And
about 5 times more than a W (7K vs. 1.4K). So this is where it goes when
there is no competition on those routes.
So what is it that keeps a fourth class between Y- and C+ (or Y-- and C++
on LH) from emerging?

flysurfer Jan 6, 06 4:53 am


Originally Posted by weero
So what is it that keeps a fourth class between Y- and C+ (or Y-- and C++ on LH) from emerging?

Many carriers have this 4th class already, so I wouldn't rule it out on LH in the long run.

It would probably mean that upgrades will become even more expensive and that we will have to say good-bye to affordable year-round Z fares.

totti Jan 6, 06 6:34 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
Many carriers have this 4th class already, so I wouldn't rule it out on LH in the long run.

It would probably mean that upgrades will become even more expensive and that we will have to say good-bye to affordable year-round Z fares.

It seems to be that way but I hope it won't.

alex220569 Jan 8, 06 8:19 am


Originally Posted by dia15222
This is typical marketing wording of LH: Give you something and at the same time take away something from you.
If they wont change amount of miles for non-germans and segments it wont be a change for me at all. Lucky!

But what I doubt is that the majority of FTL will get upset is that they cannot bring a guest anymore to the lounge!
And my theory is that LH is not thinking right about their decicion!

It wont make the lounges less crowded. The vast Majority of the PAX in the C-Lounge travel on C or have an FTL-Card. What i have observed is that if two people want to enter an FTL-Lounge and both have a card only one fumbles his FTL-Card out of his wallet. The other FTL will be ticked as "guest" even if he is also an FTL (Same with SEN, all the time I travel together with somebody).
The only one who will suffer is the business-traveler who wants to take a leisure-trip with his spouse. Before that he sticked to LH because he could use the lounges. Now he may moove to another Airline.

And guess what an FTL will do who reads not frequently the lounge-access rules? He will bring his wife to the lounge and will be refused by a lounge-dragon? Will he be a loyal customer? I know people who stopped flying LH for less!
Sorry LH even if it does not affect me in the next years this is wrong!
This BMIrisation of LH!

Still wondering!

BTW: Mr. Mayerhuber said that he would put some features of STC in M&M: Here we have one!


I totaly agree to your statements. Next week I have to go to Dubai and I think about choosing Emirates instead of LH.... It's hard for me because I have (had !) a very high identification / Loyalty to LH.. I can't understand that decision bringing no guests in. :td:

Hans Dampf Jan 8, 06 9:15 am


Originally Posted by andyZRH
That's simply because the vast majority of leisure travellers always runs for the lowest fare.

.. indeed. And another group of customers because of their frequent flyer program (me included so far). But now with all the great "improvements" it's seriously time to re-think my loyality :eek:

Flying Lawyer Jan 8, 06 1:56 pm


Originally Posted by Hans Dampf
But now with all the great "improvements" it's seriously time to re-think my loyality :eek:


Lufthansa will be really upset :D

Cheers

T.

Grog Jan 8, 06 2:30 pm


Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Lufthansa will be really upset :D

It all counts. One day they might just go too far, if they haven't already.

f4freeJunior Jan 8, 06 3:51 pm

I hope that the new lounge access rules are just a bad "1. Aprilscherz" ! :p

weero Jan 9, 06 3:06 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
Many carriers have this 4th class already, so I wouldn't rule it out on LH in the long run.

For some reason I think that it will not happen on LH. Due to their market, they
cannot sell their C seat at such outragous prices as BA (and hence Virgin) does
so they need the 'pressure of suffering' in Y for people to yearn for a seat in C.
With an E++ (such as BA has it or NZ introduces it), this pressure would
vanish.

It would probably mean that upgrades will become even more expensive and that we will have to say good-bye to affordable year-round Z fares.
Yes that is well possible as they could not sell the E++ seats otherwise. I would
gladly give up the chance to sit in real C for an affordable E++, as I just have
to learn to put up with it.
But then when the entire fleet of LH wil have E++, except for two old and
rusty 747-200s ... guess which route they would fly :eek: ..

Originally Posted by totti
It seems to be that way but I hope it won't.

totti does not share my sympathy for E++. Look at the bright side:
you could upgrade from S or T to E++ for only 20K miles per sector. And
from E++ for only 25K to real C.
It is unlikely though that SENs and HONs get to sit in E++ for free...

totti Jan 9, 06 3:22 am


Originally Posted by weero
It is unlikely though that SENs and HONs get to sit in E++ for free...

So that would be the only good thing and the Wolf could introduce this as a new improvement or perk for SENs and HONs :D and M&M would be become even more high-quality :rolleyes:

Threy Jan 9, 06 5:45 am

We will not see a 4th class between Y and C on LH.

LH is very smart and conservative in that regard and is well aware that in penny pinching Germany consumers and companies alike would book into a premium economy cabin and hence cannibalise the revenue from the C cabin heavily…

Under the bottom line what did Business Class bring to the airlines when it comes to revenue. Over the last decades on one hand airlines had to upgrade their Business Class cabins more and more and lost on the other hand revenue, both in F and overall in C and F and the quantity of tickets sold in C and F is still decreasing.

While certainly superior for the customer, the same individual is not willing to pay more for an improved C class product...one could easily assume based on the stats that the increasing quality of C killed the F class cabins, a logical conclusion would be that an improved Y would kill the C class cabins and consequently an important revenue category for the legacy carriers resulting in the demise for most of them....

The ultimate goal is still to maximise revenue via loyality and M&M is one tool, however there are simply a lot of ways to look at it.

Is somebody buying Z class to use miles to upgrade to F a cheap shot or a constant revenue generating pax that cannot afford to pay A or F class anyway ?

weero Jan 9, 06 10:39 am


Originally Posted by totti
So that would be the only good thing and the Wolf could introduce this as a new improvement or perk for SENs and HONs..

Not gonna happen. Not only because I fully agree with Threy but also
because SEN is a cheap-shot for LH these days.
The only benefit worth real money are the lounges. A product I use less and
less, simply because I cannot be bothered.

The 4th class will never materialise on LH unless they have to. That is when
BA started to offer it at reasonable cost, and a few other EU carriers offered it
ex Germany.
Otherwise the incentive to buy E++ is very strong.
No one needs a flat C seat for a short transatlantic hop. 38" pitch and laptop
power will do for nearly all business travelers.
Given the amount of cash LH has burnt with their new C product and the HON
status, they must prevent E++.

Hope to try the new NZ premium Y soon. And with TG introducing the
4th class on longhauls that might be a true winner for my travel.


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