New "improvements" of M&M 1 April 2006

Old Apr 4, 06, 9:25 am
  #256  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BRU
Programs: LH SEN, SN Gold, Eurostar Carte Blanche, BA, QF, AF
Posts: 6,856
Originally Posted by totti
Just as a side note: if it just comes down to status BA Gold is much more easy to earn than SEN. You can buy cheap (or lets say restricted) C tickets e.g. FRA-LHR for less than 250 EUR. Each of this return trips will earn 80 point and with a non UK/USA address you only need 5 of this trips to be silver (~1250 EUR) or 15 from zero to Gold (~1250 EUR + 2500 EUR = 3750 EUR).
I had no idea, but indeed, you can get DUS-LHR-DUS for €222 in business class. Now if I were somebody doing mileage runs... But actually, I rather stick to the Eurostar to get to London.

SmilingBoy.
SmilingBoy is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 11:42 am
  #257  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FRA
Programs: LH, Avis, Hyatt, ...
Posts: 4,213
Originally Posted by flysurfer
I agree, and that's why I said that seats stay empty on about HALF of the flights. The other half is indeed sold out, which obviously isn't too bad for LH in any case.LH could resolve this problem by taking your full-fare C booking and calling a few ZSHOTs, offering them 500 EUR or similar to change their flight date. They gave me 500 EUR for flying to LAX on Saturday instead of Sunday on an O award. So it's not impossible.
No word against your assumption, that HALF of the flights may have empty seats or would have even more empty seats without ZSHOTs.

But still on the heavy loaded flights, I assume, there are already some ZSHOTS and ISHOTS (upgraders) on many of those. Still C may become closed and they do not sell any C ticket anymore to a M&M or FTL. It means, LH may loose that business to another airline or might be still lucky, if one can route through another airport with LH (e.g. PDX to SFO worked for us twice). In case they do not reserve a few seats for last minute SENs and HONs they have to find volunteers, of course. But they do not sell further full fare C seats to low yield customers and look for a volunteer ZSHOT or ISHOT. And of course they do not sell a F ticket in a sold out F cabin, even having some ASHOTs and OSHOTs in there. Who may probably volunteer to another flight, if they get a few eVouchers.

Anyway, all the discussions in this thread are based on the 0401 M&M changes and the value of particular customer groups. I find some discussions very "interesting". I mean, does anyone really believe, that LH doesn't know, what they do. If a business entity introduces changes it is well known since decades, that those changes WILL HAVE impacts on the one end and impacts in the other end. Some may benefit, whereas some others may not.

For sure, a profitable service organization like LH is able to analyze and balance their introduced changes against their existing data base. Nothing is done without thinking and rethinking. I would trust LH, that they indeed know very well, what they do. Some may like it, some not.
SleepOverGreenland is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 11:56 am
  #258  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MUC/LAX/SMV
Programs: LH, UA, BD, AA, NW, FB, NH, AC, Sixt, Hertz, Avis, *W, HH, Marriott, PC, Leaders Club, AMEX
Posts: 12,407
Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
And of course they do not sell a F ticket in a sold out F cabin, even having some ASHOTs and OSHOTs in there. Who may probably volunteer to another flight, if they get a few eVouchers.
They did in my case, as LH called me (the OSHOT) up and gave me 500 EUR for flying one day earlier, so they could sell another F ticket in the sold out cabin.

Last edited by flysurfer; Apr 4, 06 at 12:07 pm
flysurfer is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 12:06 pm
  #259  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MUC/LAX/SMV
Programs: LH, UA, BD, AA, NW, FB, NH, AC, Sixt, Hertz, Avis, *W, HH, Marriott, PC, Leaders Club, AMEX
Posts: 12,407
Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
But still on the heavy loaded flights, I assume, there are already some ZSHOTS and ISHOTS (upgraders) on many of those. Still C may become closed and they do not sell any C ticket anymore to a M&M or FTL.
I thought about this and came to the conclusion that pax on C fares w/o status aren't "loyal" as in "big profit bringers". They either don't fly much at all (thus no status) or are simply looking for the best deal/routing (thus randomly switching between airlines and alliances). So LH sticks with the loyal ZSHOT SEN instead of selling one more C ticket to a "one-time" pax and investing time and money to make additional room for that pax. As you said, LH will always make room for a C pax with SEN or HON status. And as my experience shows, they also (try to) make room for F fare pax when the F cabin is already fully booked.

Of course, inventory management will try to do their best to sell just the right amount of seats to Z-SHOTS, O- and I-SHOTS, E,U,T-SHOTS etc. in order to not lose full-fare pax because of sold-out cabins. It's all about predicting loads, and sometimes, those predictions aren't just entirely correct.

Last edited by flysurfer; Apr 4, 06 at 12:34 pm
flysurfer is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 12:16 pm
  #260  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FRA
Programs: LH, Avis, Hyatt, ...
Posts: 4,213
Originally Posted by flysurfer
They did in my case, as LH called me (the OSHOT) up and gave me 500 EUR for flying one day earlier, so they could sell another F ticket in the sold out cabin.
That is good to know. I didn't experience this situation as HON so far, but ended up with a sold out F cabin as a SEN more than once. So looking forward to see, what will happen in such a situation next. However, a sold out F cabin became less likely after the 080104 changes.

On your second post: You might be right with your thoughts. Luckily we do not drive this business and let the specialits take the responsibility for all that loading and booking science.
SleepOverGreenland is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 12:41 pm
  #261  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MUC/LAX/SMV
Programs: LH, UA, BD, AA, NW, FB, NH, AC, Sixt, Hertz, Avis, *W, HH, Marriott, PC, Leaders Club, AMEX
Posts: 12,407
Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
That is good to know. I didn't experience this situation as HON so far, but ended up with a sold out F cabin as a SEN more than once. So looking forward to see, what will happen in such a situation next. However, a sold out F cabin became less likely after the 080104 changes.
Btw, regarding revenue vs. profit, HONs can we "worse" than all Z,E,U,T-SHOTS combined by reserving (and getting) a guaranteed C award seat on an almost sold-out flight. Chances are that LH could have sold that seat to a full-fare C pax - maybe even to one of your employees. Again, LH prefers to please the long-term profit pax (aka HON) over a one-time profit bringer. So here we have it: the HONSHOT traveling on an award ticket and occupying a full fare revenue seat.
flysurfer is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 1:40 pm
  #262  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A Sight For Roll Eyes
Programs: :enrolleyes:+, :drôleyes:
Posts: 5,461
Everyonce in a while we have this (interesting IMO) discusssion here. I agree with flysurfer and others. Here's what I wrote a couple of months ago...


(sorry, no Wolf pic this time)
andre1970 is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 2:23 pm
  #263  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: US
Programs: LH and BA
Posts: 2,324
Originally Posted by andre1970
Everyonce in a while we have this (interesting IMO) discusssion here. I agree with flysurfer and others. Here's what I wrote a couple of months ago...


(sorry, no Wolf pic this time)
Originally Posted by andre1970
1. I don't want to enter the discussion "which class of service should an airline improve?".

2. Let me remind you nevertheless, that the pax you refer to pay for fle-xi-bi-li-ty, and not for the chair.
Try to interpret the price difference of a fully flexible (transpac or transatlantic) Y ticket with a full fare C ticket. Surprise - surprise! It is very close to the price of a Z fare! This is how much an airline prices the difference in in-flight service. And this is the reason why you actually see people paying 5000 for an "economy" ticket while others pay 2000 for a "business" ticket on the same flight:
Because your disesteemed Z-fare guy who flies business does not fly for business. He would however gladly pay a 1500-2000 cap to have a better chair and decent catering for his summer holiday trip (instead of being stacked with the plebs) which he planned at least 50 days in advance.

Bottomline: What is the most effective pricing policy for an airline? Managing to make someone pay 2500 (restricted business) instead of 500 (restricted economy), or make someone pay 6000 (flexible business) instead of 4000 (flexible economy)? In other words, convincing someone to fly (let alone get him to pay 2000 more) when they do not have to, is IMO much more remarkable than getting someone (who would fly anyway...) to choose better conditions of (unavoidable) travel.
Because the guy who would pay 6000 (flexible business) instead of 500 (restricted economy) is not yet born...

Cheerio
A.
there are passengers who actually do this. I could go for a resticted Y but choose F instead. No Z on my routing though. If I had a Z routing i would maybe reconsider, and upgrade to F but not sure, as my routing is usually 90% full in C and F. And even as a HON I don't have upgrade guarantee to F.
roundtheworld is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 4:52 pm
  #264  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MUC/LAX/SMV
Programs: LH, UA, BD, AA, NW, FB, NH, AC, Sixt, Hertz, Avis, *W, HH, Marriott, PC, Leaders Club, AMEX
Posts: 12,407
Originally Posted by roundtheworld
there are passengers who actually do this. I could go for a resticted Y but choose F instead. No Z on my routing though. If I had a Z routing i would maybe reconsider, and upgrade to F but not sure, as my routing is usually 90% full in C and F. And even as a HON I don't have upgrade guarantee to F.
And that's why you are HON+++ ^

I have to admit that after my monthly income has climbed into the six figures, I'll probably buy F fares or charter jets for my personal travel enjoyment, as well. Until then, I'll stay a lowly ZSHOT by choice, as I simply don't feel comfortable spending close to 10,000 EUR for a marginally better seat and a serving of caviar.
flysurfer is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 4:55 pm
  #265  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany / Thailand
Programs: TK*S +SPG platinum, but not running behind status & points anymore! Now only book value for $
Posts: 3,057
Originally Posted by flysurfer
..... offering them 500 EUR or similar to change their flight date. They gave me 500 EUR for flying to LAX on Saturday instead of Sunday on an O award. So it's not impossible.
May I ask you, if they called/contacted you ? Or did you ask them ?
bertheike is offline  
Old Apr 4, 06, 4:58 pm
  #266  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MUC/LAX/SMV
Programs: LH, UA, BD, AA, NW, FB, NH, AC, Sixt, Hertz, Avis, *W, HH, Marriott, PC, Leaders Club, AMEX
Posts: 12,407
Originally Posted by bertheike
May I ask you, if they called/contacted you ? Or did you ask them ?
They called me.
flysurfer is offline  
Old Apr 6, 06, 8:36 am
  #267  
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold
Posts: 6,780
Originally Posted by SleepOverGreenland
For sure, a profitable service organization like LH is able to analyze and balance their introduced changes against their existing data base. Nothing is done without thinking and rethinking. I would trust LH, that they indeed know very well, what they do. Some may like it, some not.
Had the same thought. LH didn't reduce the miles needed to become a german based FTL/SEN just because they want to please some pax. They were able to analyse earning behaviour of german pax after the last M&M changes (8/1/2004) for more than one year. It's much likely that they know pretty sure how may M&M members will qualify for status after the 4/1/2006 changes. Probably there are some mileage runners out there who try to earn status after this changes, but is might be a manageable group of people.
totti is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: