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-   Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, Brussels, LOT and Other Partners | Miles & More (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufthansa-austrian-swiss-brussels-lot-other-partners-miles-more-495/)
-   -   New "improvements" of M&M 1 April 2006 (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufthansa-austrian-swiss-brussels-lot-other-partners-miles-more/508854-new-improvements-m-m-1-april-2006-a.html)

totti Jan 6, 06 6:34 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
Many carriers have this 4th class already, so I wouldn't rule it out on LH in the long run.

It would probably mean that upgrades will become even more expensive and that we will have to say good-bye to affordable year-round Z fares.

It seems to be that way but I hope it won't.

alex220569 Jan 8, 06 8:19 am


Originally Posted by dia15222
This is typical marketing wording of LH: Give you something and at the same time take away something from you.
If they wont change amount of miles for non-germans and segments it wont be a change for me at all. Lucky!

But what I doubt is that the majority of FTL will get upset is that they cannot bring a guest anymore to the lounge!
And my theory is that LH is not thinking right about their decicion!

It wont make the lounges less crowded. The vast Majority of the PAX in the C-Lounge travel on C or have an FTL-Card. What i have observed is that if two people want to enter an FTL-Lounge and both have a card only one fumbles his FTL-Card out of his wallet. The other FTL will be ticked as "guest" even if he is also an FTL (Same with SEN, all the time I travel together with somebody).
The only one who will suffer is the business-traveler who wants to take a leisure-trip with his spouse. Before that he sticked to LH because he could use the lounges. Now he may moove to another Airline.

And guess what an FTL will do who reads not frequently the lounge-access rules? He will bring his wife to the lounge and will be refused by a lounge-dragon? Will he be a loyal customer? I know people who stopped flying LH for less!
Sorry LH even if it does not affect me in the next years this is wrong!
This BMIrisation of LH!

Still wondering!

BTW: Mr. Mayerhuber said that he would put some features of STC in M&M: Here we have one!


I totaly agree to your statements. Next week I have to go to Dubai and I think about choosing Emirates instead of LH.... It's hard for me because I have (had !) a very high identification / Loyalty to LH.. I can't understand that decision bringing no guests in. :td:

Hans Dampf Jan 8, 06 9:15 am


Originally Posted by andyZRH
That's simply because the vast majority of leisure travellers always runs for the lowest fare.

.. indeed. And another group of customers because of their frequent flyer program (me included so far). But now with all the great "improvements" it's seriously time to re-think my loyality :eek:

Flying Lawyer Jan 8, 06 1:56 pm


Originally Posted by Hans Dampf
But now with all the great "improvements" it's seriously time to re-think my loyality :eek:


Lufthansa will be really upset :D

Cheers

T.

Grog Jan 8, 06 2:30 pm


Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Lufthansa will be really upset :D

It all counts. One day they might just go too far, if they haven't already.

f4freeJunior Jan 8, 06 3:51 pm

I hope that the new lounge access rules are just a bad "1. Aprilscherz" ! :p

weero Jan 9, 06 3:06 am


Originally Posted by flysurfer
Many carriers have this 4th class already, so I wouldn't rule it out on LH in the long run.

For some reason I think that it will not happen on LH. Due to their market, they
cannot sell their C seat at such outragous prices as BA (and hence Virgin) does
so they need the 'pressure of suffering' in Y for people to yearn for a seat in C.
With an E++ (such as BA has it or NZ introduces it), this pressure would
vanish.

It would probably mean that upgrades will become even more expensive and that we will have to say good-bye to affordable year-round Z fares.
Yes that is well possible as they could not sell the E++ seats otherwise. I would
gladly give up the chance to sit in real C for an affordable E++, as I just have
to learn to put up with it.
But then when the entire fleet of LH wil have E++, except for two old and
rusty 747-200s ... guess which route they would fly :eek: ..

Originally Posted by totti
It seems to be that way but I hope it won't.

totti does not share my sympathy for E++. Look at the bright side:
you could upgrade from S or T to E++ for only 20K miles per sector. And
from E++ for only 25K to real C.
It is unlikely though that SENs and HONs get to sit in E++ for free...

totti Jan 9, 06 3:22 am


Originally Posted by weero
It is unlikely though that SENs and HONs get to sit in E++ for free...

So that would be the only good thing and the Wolf could introduce this as a new improvement or perk for SENs and HONs :D and M&M would be become even more high-quality :rolleyes:

Threy Jan 9, 06 5:45 am

We will not see a 4th class between Y and C on LH.

LH is very smart and conservative in that regard and is well aware that in penny pinching Germany consumers and companies alike would book into a premium economy cabin and hence cannibalise the revenue from the C cabin heavily…

Under the bottom line what did Business Class bring to the airlines when it comes to revenue. Over the last decades on one hand airlines had to upgrade their Business Class cabins more and more and lost on the other hand revenue, both in F and overall in C and F and the quantity of tickets sold in C and F is still decreasing.

While certainly superior for the customer, the same individual is not willing to pay more for an improved C class product...one could easily assume based on the stats that the increasing quality of C killed the F class cabins, a logical conclusion would be that an improved Y would kill the C class cabins and consequently an important revenue category for the legacy carriers resulting in the demise for most of them....

The ultimate goal is still to maximise revenue via loyality and M&M is one tool, however there are simply a lot of ways to look at it.

Is somebody buying Z class to use miles to upgrade to F a cheap shot or a constant revenue generating pax that cannot afford to pay A or F class anyway ?

weero Jan 9, 06 10:39 am


Originally Posted by totti
So that would be the only good thing and the Wolf could introduce this as a new improvement or perk for SENs and HONs..

Not gonna happen. Not only because I fully agree with Threy but also
because SEN is a cheap-shot for LH these days.
The only benefit worth real money are the lounges. A product I use less and
less, simply because I cannot be bothered.

The 4th class will never materialise on LH unless they have to. That is when
BA started to offer it at reasonable cost, and a few other EU carriers offered it
ex Germany.
Otherwise the incentive to buy E++ is very strong.
No one needs a flat C seat for a short transatlantic hop. 38" pitch and laptop
power will do for nearly all business travelers.
Given the amount of cash LH has burnt with their new C product and the HON
status, they must prevent E++.

Hope to try the new NZ premium Y soon. And with TG introducing the
4th class on longhauls that might be a true winner for my travel.

totti Jan 9, 06 12:22 pm

Yeah, actually I fully agree with you two above.

andyZRH Jan 9, 06 3:05 pm


Originally Posted by Threy
We will not see a 4th class between Y and C on LH.

LH is very smart and conservative in that regard and is well aware that in penny pinching Germany consumers and companies alike would book into a premium economy cabin and hence cannibalise the revenue from the C cabin heavily…

Well, that's a possibility. However, e.g. BA does have a premium economy product and last time I checked they were doing pretty well financially. (I don't know whether WT+ itself is a success, though.) Are the markets really that different for LH and BA?

weero Jan 9, 06 7:28 pm


Originally Posted by andyZRH
..Are the markets really that different for LH and BA?

Yes they are. Look at D and Z class bookings with long advance purchase
periods and you will see that the UK is pretty much the most expensive market
anywhere.
LH however competes against many cheapo airlines on the continent and does
so quite successfully. But this is why they cannot 'afford' to let E++ emerge.

The upgrade situation is exactly the opposite: full fares and upgrade availability
ex. LHR are a dream (probably because of the steep revenue price). Whereas
LH makes class transfers as hard as possible. So the gearing is very, very
different.

Originally Posted by totti
Yeah, actually I fully agree with you two above.

I know it's a pity - I would have loved to have E++ on LH. But then the
grandmaster won't let me have it. I am sure he already warned Georgy Clooney
who in turn then leaked the information to the Wolf.

flysurfer Jan 9, 06 8:30 pm


Originally Posted by weero
Yes they But then the grandmaster won't let me have it. I am sure he already warned Georgy Clooney who in turn then leaked the information to the Wolf.

Nope, haven't met George recently. You are safe. But I met his dad, Nick, a few weeks before X-mas. Very nice gentleman.

alex220569 Jan 10, 06 12:49 am

Minimum mileage for attaining status (FOREIGN COUNTRY)
 
Does anybody of these experts here know what are the new mileage borders for SEN/FTL if you are having residence overseas (e.g. Cape Town). :D

Thanks, Alex


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