Shocking Anti Semitic incident

Old May 20, 22, 4:26 pm
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
as long as a crew member tells you to do something, you do it and bring it up the ladder after the flight. If not then dont complain when what happens happens
sorry to tell you but no one has to starve because of a rouge fa this not doing something insufficient and contrary to your belief the fa has to follow rules too,, you bring a example to show how warped you are that's a real accomplishment
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Old May 21, 22, 10:46 pm
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Originally Posted by Ijones027 View Post
sorry to tell you but no one has to starve because of a rouge fa this not doing something insufficient and contrary to your belief the fa has to follow rules too,, you bring a example to show how warped you are that's a real accomplishment
Rouge or not, you must listen to the crew if you chose not to then there are consequences as those on both LH and KLM have learnt the hard way besides those that learnt them as well on Spirit and JetBlue and AA

I get it those girls dont have to fast on Yom Kippur or Tish B'Av either if they are hungry or starving.Im sure you meant to say they were starving to death and had they listened to the FA they would have died. Lets see it was intra Europe flight and ALL of those are a min of 18 hrs long. While in the term waiting for the flight they didnt have any time to eat.
Its very simple when on the flight you listen to the crew if you believe what they are asking isnt right you still listen and report it after you arrive. If you want to decide what can and cant be done and heck with the crew, then dont fly commerical or charter the plane so you can do as you please as long as it was agreed upon bet the parties beforehand

Seems to me you are simply one of those
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Old May 22, 22, 7:56 am
  #453  
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
As a friend of mine just put it. The punishment might not have fit the crime, BUT had the crime not been committed there never would have been any punishment, so its those passengers who didnt follow the crews instructions where the Fault mainly lies.

The main problem is LH will do its due diligence and if it finds wrong doing take care of it. But what about the religious passengers who in general dont listen to what the crews tell them they can or cant do, if they dont change then this is asking to repeated again just like KLM with the girls before LH a short time ago

Both sides must take action since the problem is with both sides.
I could nor agree more to your last sentence. There are, however, this I have learnt, Lubavitchers throwing rocks at people being active on Saturdays as these consider this a "Shabbos violation". I further learnt that even among the Hassidim there are more subsects than you have fingers and toes to count the numbers. How, and this again is a serious question, would you expect a European airline to make a difference? Shall they hire a professor in Judaism? Or would it have been appropriate for people within this group of orthodox followers of Judaism not agreeing to verbal of physical violence or disobedience to FA's orders to tell their brothers (probably no unruly sisters) to behave themselves. The photos I saw left the impression that they were all united against a common enemy, Lufthansa. This impression was conveyed in this thread, too.
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Old May 22, 22, 9:32 am
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Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer View Post
I could nor agree more to your last sentence. There are, however, this I have learnt, Lubavitchers throwing rocks at people being active on Saturdays as these consider this a "Shabbos violation". I further learnt that even among the Hassidim there are more subsects than you have fingers and toes to count the numbers. How, and this again is a serious question, would you expect a European airline to make a difference? Shall they hire a professor in Judaism? Or would it have been appropriate for people within this group of orthodox followers of Judaism not agreeing to verbal of physical violence or disobedience to FA's orders to tell their brothers (probably no unruly sisters) to behave themselves. The photos I saw left the impression that they were all united against a common enemy, Lufthansa. This impression was conveyed in this thread, too.
1- Lubaitchers throwing stones, I disagree with them in many many ways but I highly doubt youd find them to be rock throwers at least as a group. In Israel many serve in the IDF and work . Sorry but I do question your sources for the info on them that you posted.

2- as to how an airline should know the difference, is simple 1- the crew ties up those who didnt listen and continued doing as they pleased after being Warned. 2- maybe the crew cant know but for sure HQ had they looked at the reses would have know that there wasnt 1 group on that flight that consisted of 135 (whatever the #) Very poor execution IMO oh LHs part 3- what would you say if you were on JAL, DUS-NRT-SYD and since x # of White English folks werent listening that JAL said OK all whites that were flying DUS-NRT-SYD are banned for 24 hrs since there was a group from London flying DUS-NRT-SYD that didnt listen to the crew thusly JAL banned all whites flying since they were 1 group. Seems youd agree with JAL doing that since how can the crew know which white folks are in fact with The English group and which arent and since they were flying the same itin therefore they must be together as 1 group

If I had been on that flight and spoke to them it would be as if I spoke Chinese, unfortunately. Common sense isnt so common, just look at that poster who felt the girls on KLM were right for not listening to the FA since they were straving to death and would have died had they listened,LoL. Unfortunately among Every group of people you will find those that feel that rules and regulations apply to everyone but them.

Why did that lounge receptionist @ The Sen lounge @ FRA welcome me so nicely to the lounge, till she saw I was a religious Jew that was going to pray in a corner tucked away, and there were < 12 people in the lounge and a min of 5 had their shoes off and sleeping on the furniture. I bet you had I stood in that same spot and crossed myself she NEVER would have said 1 word. Unfortunately anti-semitism is alive and well. Now that doesnt mean what happened to those who were to fly to BUD was due to AS, it might have, and if it was then it would lie with the person/s who did the banning. I would love to know what the crew told the Capt of that flight and what the Capt told FRA

The crews must be informed that just cause theres more then 1 religious Jew on a flight doesnt mean they are all traveling as 1 group and if you dont know which individuals are at fault then Nothing can be done except to warn everyone on the connecting flight dont listen 1 time and thats it for You (not the whole group) and you cant simply ban people unless you know they are guilty and in our case being a religious Jew doesnt make you guilty of anything. I wasnt on that flight but I doubt every single religious didnt listen or that the vast majority didnt, sure it was probably more then 2 or 3 but far from 135

Next Mon I have a LX connecting flight, I would be annoyed if Im told sorry you are banned for 24 hrs since your group didnt listen, hey Im flying alone and not a part of any group. It wouldnt bother as much if as I handed over my BP Im told unfortunately on your Inbound flight theres a report of a number of passengers that fit into a category that didnt listen to the crew Im not saying you were one of them but we are giving a warning to anyone that might have been in that grouping what will be should it reoccur on this flight. Thats Innocent until proven Guilty, LH said you are Guilty till youre proven Innocent and there are no Innocents involved.
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Old May 22, 22, 10:08 am
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Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer View Post
The photos I saw left the impression that they were all united against a common enemy, Lufthansa. This impression was conveyed in this thread, too.
and yet there are tons of LH cant do anything wrong and dare criticize LH and we will bully you to death, and its not only LH you read these type of posts on any Carrier or Hotel forum. I get it if you own that company but personally I couldnt give a rats a--- about any company be it American,Israeli, European even sports teams people are Nuts that they attack the fans for an opposing team or yell racist or bigot remarks. Should the team from your city or Country win the championship they hit the streets we are #1, what GARBAGE a team with a losing record for the year walked away with the Superbowl win that doesnt mean they are the best if they were they wouldnt have had a losing record.what means is the NFL wants to make more $$$$ so the more games played brings in more $$$$ and that team got very very lucky where they Stank the whole year got lucky at the end over 3 or 4 games.
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Old May 22, 22, 10:11 am
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Old May 22, 22, 10:45 am
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Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer View Post

what stroke me was weero’s argument. 125 travellers with a bunch of troublemaker amongst them on an A319. The approach of SOME of these guys was certainly aggressive in Frankfurt. It was reportedly aggressiv on the plane and reading the posts on your very own blog quite a few people did not find this surprising but understood this as common behaviour of members of this group. As said earlier: as a FC I would probably not have taken the risk of taking the bunch of travellers in black to Budapest provided with such information. Reading your blog and about aggressive members of this group I would have thought about this more than twice. The US banned entire countries just because of unproven assumptions that citizens of such countries were involved in terrorism. Better careful than sorry, was Thomas Weimann clear concept. Here we had indications that trouble should be ahead and these indications were confirmed by the behaviour of certain individuals. Had members of this religious believe - or even a Rabbi with authority - stood up on that flight and told the people to behave, quite a bit could have been avoided. Given that no reaction whatsoever was reported, it can only be assumed that everybody was in agreement. It protesting, not standing up against aggression and wrong behaviour is silent conformation (does this argument sound familiar to you?)
1- I dont have a Blog nor own any website

2- Rabbi with authority what the heck are you drinking or smoking today?? AFAIK there wasnt any pulpit Rabbi or leader as a passenger, seems you are making the exact same mistake that the crew did, assuming many a thing that simply isnt true. Personally I a religious jew what ever that may be but Im not a Rabbi and never studied to be and not ordained as one and w/o knowing who exactly was on that flight Id say the vast vast majority of the religious Jewish passengers are no different then me and also arent ordained Rabbis. Sort of if Im a baptist why would I care what the Pope says heck and arent there 2 Popes the one in Rome and the Eastern Orthrodox one and they dont recognize each other , theres even 2 New Years and Easters and Xmas due to each having their own calendar they follow.

I think there are 4 different sects that claim the church of the Holy Sepulchre and in order to stop the fighting they gave the keys to a Muslim to control. I can go on and on and on, my point is I dont know of a single religion that has 1 leader that all the followers of that religion would listen to, why do you expect it to be different for Judaism?

for the 100th time I too wouldnt have allowed them on the BUD flight if they each werent Warned, but since it wasnt known who were the culprits I in the end would have let them all on Warning them what will happen should anyone not listen to my crew and I would divert to the nearest airport and the expense will be charged to them. Id have them arrested and not released until the expense of the diversion was paid.

So if in fact under German law they cant use ties, then positive ID should have been made not hard at all, just keep your mouth shut and watch where they sit and get their name/s. Then if I was LH Id push as hard as possible to get The German law changed to allow them to tie up those that need to be. I cant believe that if there are 1 or more passengers that try to hijack the plane that the crews hands are tied and cant do anything but ask if they want something to eat or drink.

I can tell you this if I was a passenger I wouldnt have been a happy camper @ FRA either especially if like my upcoming LX flight Im not flying with anyone but myself. I wouldnt have taken it out on the police but I understand why they did I dont understand why an IDIOT called them Nazi's or other negative comments were made.But realize you just spent money or miles and heading somewhere for a day and have to be there by a certain time to be told since some fellow religious passengers didnt listen You too will pay the price. Had you been a religious Jew on that flight and was banned why do I have the feeling you wouldnt have taken it lying down either, not saying you would have yelled Nazi etc but you wouldnt have said OK I understand youre right
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Old May 23, 22, 6:18 pm
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
How many times will you blatantly ignore and fail to address the fact that while there were many Hasidic Jews on the flight, there were also dozens of non-Hasidic Jewish men, women, and kids who were lumped in with them and barred from LH for 24 hours, despite being compliant on the flight?
I am not ignoring it, I just maintain that the prejudicial grouping that ground staff had to perform wasn't unreasonable. The innocently affected are owed compensation.

Also, it seems that some Jews have still been permitted on the flight, so it wasn't an attack on the Jewish people.

Originally Posted by craz View Post
wait 1 min, what obscure sect are you talking about?? Im positive they werent just members of 1 sect that made up either of the 2 booked groups and there were religious Jews as passengers who arent a part of any sect = arent Hassidism and werent allowed to fly to BUD
No specific one. I am speaking from the perspective of a what the crew and ground crew had to face.
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Old May 23, 22, 8:35 pm
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Old May 23, 22, 9:42 pm
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Originally Posted by weero View Post
I am not ignoring it, I just maintain that the prejudicial grouping that ground staff had to perform wasn't unreasonable. The innocently affected are owed compensation.

Also, it seems that some Jews have still been permitted on the flight, so it wasn't an attack on the Jewish people.


No specific one. I am speaking from the perspective of a what the crew and ground crew had to face.
And the crew was dead wrong. I already said had those passengers listened to what the crew told them none of this would have happen. Main fault is with those passengers who didnt listen to the crew

But the crew was wrong as well. They simply cant say OK since some religious Jews didnt listen all will be punished. Nor is it right if some basketball fans from France not listen to say OK sorry football fan from Greece we are gonna punish all sport fans, since some didnt listen and you all being sports fans must be traveling together. Or some black, green or purple passengers dont listen so all passengers of that same color are gonna be punished.

If the crew cant ID the exact culprits then unfortunately everyone goes free, just Warn everyone w/o convicting them, what will happen if they dont listen to any crews instructions.Therefore the prejudicial grouping was Dead Wrong no matter what type the passengers fell into it. But till someone can provide proof that the reason the group was punished was simply due to being Jewish I dont see Anti-Semitism coming into play, show me the person/s who did the banning are known to be anti-semitic thats something else or have posts plastered on social media to that affect.

You also said the innocent affected are due compensation, well if LH doesnt know who was guilty that means compensation is due to everyone that was banned which will include the guilty persons as well since LH doenst know who the guilty ones are, nor the crew. If they do know then why did they punish everyone if they knew the guilty partys

I usually travel alone I sure as heck wouldnt want to be punished due to what some Males, or white people, or Jews or people of my age bracket or American etc etc did or didnt do Its the responsibility of the crew to ID the guilty and not the innocent
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Old May 24, 22, 1:04 am
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
And the crew was dead wrong. I already said had those passengers listened to what the crew told them none of this would have happen. Main fault is with those passengers who didnt listen to the crew

But the crew was wrong as well.
Yes, they were technically wrong but not from the data known at the moment.

One cannot stress enough what FlyingLawyer has offered here. Calling a German officer of the law a "Nazi" isn't just bad taste, it is a criminal offense. Those who vulgarly and loudly protested at the gate - even if they did not cause trouble on the flight - were absolutely rightfully barred for a "calm down" period. I can't wrong the ground staff and law enforcement for this.

Those who did not ruin the flight and scream "antisemitism" at the gate were wronged. I don't think anyone here does dispute this.

They simply cant say OK since some religious Jews didnt listen all will be punished <SNIP> If the crew cant ID the exact culprits then unfortunately everyone goes free, just Warn everyone w/o convicting them, what will happen if they dont listen to any crews instructions.Therefore the prejudicial grouping was Dead Wrong no matter what type the passengers fell into it.
But they were not "punished", it was a safety measure.
You cannot gamble that a "team" that has just misbehaved on the 788 and then will make for 80% of the 320's cabin will not pose a major risk. Especially not after how the same team again behaved at the gate.

You also said the innocent affected are due compensation, well if LH doesnt know who was guilty that means compensation is due to everyone that was banned which will include the guilty persons as well since LH doenst know who the guilty ones are, nor the crew. If they do know then why did they punish everyone if they knew the guilty partys
I do not think that the ground crew and the BUD pilot did know the culprits in real time.
The longhaul crew should have made detailed records and recordings on the flight but I doubt that they were fully aware what would unfold on the ground.

I usually travel alone I sure as heck wouldnt want to be punished due to what some Males, or white people, or Jews or people of my age bracket or American etc etc did or didnt do Its the responsibility of the crew to ID the guilty and not the innocent
I agree, it is very unpleasant.
But we all "get punished" by those who misbehave. I missed connections and also had a flight turned around because of drunks. C'est la vie. At least those wronged here have some hope for restitution.

Originally Posted by 84fiero View Post
As a pilot I can assure you this is not even remotely a risk in any mainline airliner.
You push the envelope of "mainline" - FT is ripe with stories of passengers being bumped for weight balance reasons.

And not just on tiny commuter planes.

Last edited by weero; May 24, 22 at 3:28 pm Reason: spelling
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Old May 24, 22, 5:53 am
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Originally Posted by weero View Post
Yes, there technically wrong but not from the data known at the moment.

One cannot stress enough what FlyingLawyer has offered here. Calling a German officer of the law a "Nazi" isn't just bad taste, it is a criminal offense. Those who vulgarly and loudly protested at the gate - even if they did not cause trouble on the flight - were absolutely rightfully barred for a "calm down" period. I can't wrong the ground staff and law enforcement for this.

Those who did not ruin the flight and scream "antisemitism" at the gate were wronged. I don't think anyone here does dispute this.


But they were not "punished", it was a safety measure.
You cannot gamble that a "team" that has just misbehaved on the 788 and then will make for 80% of the 320's cabin will not pose a major risk. Especially not after how the same team again behaved at the gate.


I do not think that the ground crew and the BUD pilot did know the culprits in real time.
The longhaul crew should have made detailed records and recordings on the flight but I doubt that they were fully aware what would unfold on the ground.


I agree, it is very unpleasant.
But we all "get punished" by those who misbehave. I missed connections and also had a flight turned around because of drunks. C'est la vie. At least those wronged here have some hope for restitution.


You push the envelope of "mainline" - FT is ripe with stories of passengers being bumped for weight balance reasons.

And not just on tiny commuter planes.

1- the data known and is fact is little to none in regards to the # of culprits on board the flight

2- from the video it appears theres 1 IDIOT who yelled Nazi, so therefore punish everyone who is at the gate cause you dont know who it was???

3- as for the calm down period, they acted at the gate ONLY due to being told NO FLIGHT FOR YOU, so they were banned way way before getting to the gate, the police were there before they would have boarded.

4- no way was it a safety measure it was Punishment plain and simple , since the crew didnt ID the culprits they were all made out to be the culprits, nice try And theres a pilot who posted thusly up thread.

5- was the punishment dolled out due to anti-semitism, I dont believe so , but maybe, but no one has shown me any proof that was the reason

It seems the known facts arent important to you, why I dont know.. Your example with the drunks is just so far far off. Had the Capt diverted to off load the known culprits and everyone missed the BUD connection or didnt end up making it on time to their destination it would be understandable. Since every passenger no matter who would have been effective, here its only the religious Jews that were affected. Also why didnt the JFK Capt divert? maybe he felt there was no safety issue , Im sure if he felt there was a safety issue he would have landed at the closest open airport.Nor does it seem that that Capt even said so in their warning announcement. I therefore assume that safety wasnt the issue at hand but punishment was
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Old May 24, 22, 11:52 am
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Old May 24, 22, 12:16 pm
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
Theres only 1 part I HATE, that this letter and offer will be sent to all of those who werent allowed on the BUD flight, which will include all the culprits as well , unfortunately thats the crew fault for not IDing the individual culprits.

Although the CEO said acceptance will not have any affect on a lawsuit, Id hope that those who accept wont sue and let LH do its inquiry which it seems set on doing. As for time hey The USSC still hasnt mentioned anything about who leaked the Roe vs Wade folio, things if done correctly take time. That way LH and everyone will know it wasnt a matter of profiting a Kiddish HaShem by not suing

FWIW the jury is still out if it was anti-semitism or not

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Old May 24, 22, 12:48 pm
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
Theres only 1 part I HATE, that this letter and offer will be sent to all of those who werent allowed on the BUD flight, which will include all the culprits as well , unfortunately thats the crew fault for not IDing the individual culprits.

Although the CEO said acceptance will not have any affect on a lawsuit, Id hope that those who accept wont sue and let LH do its inquiry which it seems set on doing. As for time hey The USSC still hasnt mentioned anything about who leaked the Roe vs Wade folio, things if done correctly take time. That way LH and everyone will know it wasnt a matter of profiting a Kiddish HaShem by not suing

FWIW the jury is still out if it was anti-semitism or not
who said their were "culprits"? Who said anyone really misbehaved in a way they should be removed from a flight
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