Shocking Anti Semitic incident

Old May 18, 22, 12:11 pm
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Originally Posted by weero View Post
it feels out of context or trimmed..
It's not, but OK. She's perfectly clear.

Originally Posted by weero View Post
I did indeed miss that.
So you were able to identify them by common characteristics....
Well yes, they were all Jewish.
If they were all Black and the agent said Black people instead of Jewish people, would that make a difference to you?
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Old May 18, 22, 4:10 pm
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Originally Posted by friedablass View Post
So it's ok to discriminate based on religion?
Again, I don't think that discrimination is a meaningful term outside of punitive measures applied to disadvantage a group of people.

They were blocked as a safety measure, not as a punishment. From the narrow perspective of the captain and the ground staff - 130 members of an "obscure cult" partially resisted crew orders, bullied other passengers, did their rituals sans regards to the plane or the passengers.
Now 130 on a 788 is just bad style but on an A319, they can get the plane off balance when they congregate in a "sacred corner".
Break them in portions of 20 to 30 and they become less of a flight risk.
Everyone is safer this way, even those who feel singled out.

Are you aware that there are laws in most civilized countries against discrimination based on race, color, religion, gender, and national origin? (Maybe even more than that, but I know for sure that these are on record in the USA.)
Most European countries protect a lot more than the US. I.e. political stance, opinions, group and club membership.
So from our perspective stopping football fans is indeed similar to stop singing Jains or that Jewish sub-group (or whatever term you prefer),

Jews who weren't dressed that way at all, as well as women were banned too. This cannot be explained in the context of a sports team all wearing a uniform so this will continue to not be addressed.
Because it sounds outlandish. How can we ignorant heirs of Christendom tell Jews from other people we plan to discriminate against? I seriously would not know how.

ETA: The fact that a negative assumption from Wikipedia was quoted in this post and accepted as gospel, further proves that only information that fits the agenda will be acknowledged; anything else will be discarded and ignored.
In Wiki Veritas, as Caesar used to say.
If Wikipedia isn't good enough on the matter, how can you expect that we know the intricacies and subtleties of such a distinction?

Many innocent Jews got the short end of the stick here based on the bad behavior of quite a few of their peers not because some self proclaimed Aryan seized control over FRA. They are owed an apology, compensation, and some goodies. Restitution to the actual factual damage, if you will, nothing more.
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Old May 18, 22, 7:04 pm
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
Not exactly 1 of the 2 TAs (maybe both) are mainstays on his site , so Im sure he put them together and posted on here as well 'chff '
I'm one of the TAs involved, the other one is not on DDF. And I knew a few people "individuals" on the flight, and they knew others, and slowly had a list of every pax
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Old May 18, 22, 7:08 pm
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
I highly doubt the FAs would have had the Capt make the same announcement if it was the same 2 or 3 people all the time.
In March I flew LH as part of a group, the purser kept on complaining "your people are not wearing masks", yet everyone was wearing a medical mask
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Old May 18, 22, 7:30 pm
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Originally Posted by chff View Post
I'm one of the TAs involved, the other one is not on DDF. And I knew a few people "individuals" on the flight, and they knew others, and slowly had a list of every pax
pretty much what I posted, all I was saying was Dan didnt at random contact the passengers on his own, how could he know who was on the flight. Since you were 1 of the TAs you had to know your clients that flew. Nothing wrong with that
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Old May 18, 22, 7:53 pm
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Originally Posted by chff View Post
In March I flew LH as part of a group, the purser kept on complaining "your people are not wearing masks", yet everyone was wearing a medical mask
Im not a TA nor was I ever, nor a tour leader or organizer. I cant speak for this episode but will take you at your word that those in your group (meaning your clients) were masked properly that does mean covering ones nose, so if that wasnt done it wasnt being worn properly. Were there other outwardly Jews on the flight and were they always in compliance.

All too often it would be assumed that all the people on a flight that look like they are in a group are. Which isnt true most of the time. Could be it would have been the same if the flight was out of Jamaica and people wore Jamaican shirts (if they even exist) and the crew would have assumed they were all in 1 group.

But I dont have enough fingers to count the # of times I checked in be it for a flight, hotel or car and the person in front of me was outwardly Jewish and they tried pulling some shtick and when I got to the counter the person spoke down of them not knowing I also was a religious Jew. Im sure they arent the only ones in The World doing it, but if you are suppose to be a religious Jew then you better act that way or if you want to play games dont look outwardly as a religious Jew.

Bear in mind to almost everyone but another religious Jew when you dress a certain way You are looked at as a Rabbi, they dont get that youre not a Rabbi and can be religious. I go thru that all the time with my neighbors they know what a priest looks like and assume if you dress a certain way it means youre a Rabbi. It blows their mind that a Rabbi will be out mowing his lawn since they never saw a priest do that. and I dont dress looking like a religious Jew during the week but they have seen me walking on Shabbos plenty of times. I dont live in an area of religious Jews
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Old May 19, 22, 1:36 am
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Originally Posted by weero View Post
Many innocent Jews got the short end of the stick here based on the bad behavior of quite a few of their peers not because some self proclaimed Aryan seized control over FRA. They are owed an apology, compensation, and some goodies. Restitution to the actual factual damage, if you will, nothing more.
I fully agree to this. And maybe they wish to turn around and discuss this issue with their brothers in faith who caused the root cause.

By the way. I took the time reading the entire posts in the said blog and I need to make the remark that I am shocked. Some posts contain racist hate speak against the company, the people involved and Germans as such. I personally would have never believed that statements like these are possible in the year 2022. The "N" word at the airport appears to be at the lower end of a hate scale of such speeches. I do expect that a responsible blog owner removes such hate speech. I refrain from copying this into Flyertalk as Flyertalk would rightfully mask this out. These comments are illegal probably under every jurisdiction in Europe. I am however surprised to find the links towards such posts here on Flyertalk.

However, there are quite a few very reasonable posts in this blog and I hope it is within the rules of FT to cite posts like

what is also unacceptable is the Chassishers who think they rule the world and that rules don’t apply to them
and

As a frum Jew, I can say that many chasidim don’t know how to behave and cause a tremendous chilul hashem. Lufthansa is in the wrong but we should also be honest and try to somehow get the klall to improve their behavior.
And the tendency in the forum is pretty well described:

100%, but this is a frum forum and I think it’s important we be honest with ourselves. There are other minorities that play the victim card and complain about discrimination when in fact there is a bit of a justification and a reason for it. My point here is that yes, we shouldn’t remain silent but we should also be honest with ourselves, as a group, we have what to learn in terms of manners and derech eretz. I find it worse by chasidim (refusing to sit next to a woman, demanding out of the ordinary requests etc) but obviously it’s across the board.
Thank you for these honest comments! Lufthansa probably overreacted if you review this incident ex post. If you, however, try to be fair and evaluate it ex ante, then I am with weero. He rightfully points out that the relevant onward flight was on a 319/320 with roundabout 140 seats. Given that, the group of 125+ would have been more or less the only pax on this flight. Dealing with such a situation with 3 or 4 FAa only would have been more than a risk. Maybe it was a fault to sell all these seats to members of the same religious subgroup described in a "frum forum" by "many chasidim don’t know how to behave and cause a tremendous chilul hashem". As "religion" is not asked for when booking a flight, this could not however be prevented and it would be certainly discrimination not to sell an airline seat because of religion. Taking the posts above from people who are in the know this might always cause problems. Reading these and other posts in that blog, one can assume that such situations will occur again (and have occurred in the past).

Looking at the way forward, and this is a question meant very seriously, how shall an airline deal with this?
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Old May 19, 22, 4:06 am
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
It's not, but OK. She's perfectly clear.
No, I really don't think so. The activists who filmed led her on, twisted her words, made racist proposals, and insinuated the worst.
They pushed her until she said something that sounded dumb. But she didn't want to say it, she was pushed.

Well If they were all Black and the agent said Black people instead of Jewish people, would that make a difference to you?
Again, discriminating against Jews as a race is unacceptable. But "better safe than sorry" at the expense of an obscure Jewish sect (not meant to be an indult) isn't in the same ballpark.
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Old May 19, 22, 6:58 am
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Originally Posted by chff View Post
In March I flew LH as part of a group, the purser kept on complaining "your people are not wearing masks", yet everyone was wearing a medical mask
Theres a famous saying dont know if you ever heard it before, " Fool me once Shame on You, Fool me Twice, Shame on Me". So you said in March you ran into problems why the heck would you do another group booking with LH???? I hope its note to beable to max profits
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Old May 19, 22, 9:33 am
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Originally Posted by weero View Post
Again, discriminating against Jews as a race is unacceptable. But "better safe than sorry" at the expense of an obscure Jewish sect (not meant to be an indult) isn't in the same ballpark.
How many times will you blatantly ignore and fail to address the fact that while there were many Hasidic Jews on the flight, there were also dozens of non-Hasidic Jewish men, women, and kids who were lumped in with them and barred from LH for 24 hours, despite being compliant on the flight?
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Old May 19, 22, 9:43 am
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This is the PROPER way for these people to fly. I say PROPER since if you look at the pics no one is masked, praying in the aisles, do what you want in the galley, look out the exit door as you wish. It was a CHARTER and therefore Im sure everything was OKed ahead of time bet the TA and LOT and the Crew, unlike the LH flight where the passengers felt why should they have to comply with what those on that Charter didnt, unfortunately that is the mind set of alot of Hassidic people

Even the FAs didnt wear a mask

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.p...msg2585420#new

as long as LOT agreed to what the TA asked for and the crew knew about it and it seems they did then theres NOTHING wrong with how they conducted themselves on the flight. But at the same time its what most crews on a non-charter dont want to have as their passengers since they know in general this group of people arent the kind to listen to the crews instructions and will do as they please,Im sorry to say

Last edited by craz; May 19, 22 at 9:52 am
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Old May 19, 22, 9:48 am
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Originally Posted by weero View Post


Now 130 on a 788 is just bad style but on an A319, they can get the plane off balance when they congregate in a "sacred corner".
Break them in portions of 20 to 30 and they become less of a flight risk.
Everyone is safer this way, even those who feel singled out.
As a pilot I can assure you this is not even remotely a risk in any mainline airliner.
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Old May 19, 22, 10:21 am
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
This is the PROPER way for these people to fly. I say PROPER since if you look at the pics no one is masked, praying in the aisles, do what you want in the galley, look out the exit door as you wish. It was a CHARTER and therefore Im sure everything was OKed ahead of time bet the TA and LOT and the Crew, unlike the LH flight where the passengers felt why should they have to comply with what those on that Charter didnt, unfortunately that is the mind set of alot of Hassidic people

Even the FAs didnt wear a mask

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.p...msg2585420#new

as long as LOT agreed to what the TA asked for and the crew knew about it and it seems they did then theres NOTHING wrong with how they conducted themselves on the flight. But at the same time its what most crews on a non-charter dont want to have as their passengers since they know in general this group of people arent the kind to listen to the crews instructions and will do as they please,Im sorry to say
Given that the USA, Hungary, Poland have all abolished the mask mandate, it was not legally required.
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Old May 19, 22, 10:46 am
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Originally Posted by chff View Post
Given that the USA, Hungary, Poland have all abolished the mask mandate, it was not legally required.
Well even the EU did away with it but LH still mandated it and I believe still does. So even thou Israel is doing away with All flights to TLV (maybe it was also from TLV till now) could be LH will still mandate it And even more so that it wasnt mandated @ FRA, yet you had to be properly masked on LH

The main problem is obeying rules for that group is something that they feel in general they can decide on their own what must be adhered to

Now about about answering why you book with LH again after what happened back in March??
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Old May 19, 22, 10:55 am
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[QUOTE=weero;34262744

Again, discriminating against Jews as a race is unacceptable. But "better safe than sorry" at the expense of an obscure Jewish sect (not meant to be an indult) isn't in the same ballpark.[/QUOTE]

wait 1 min, what obscure sect are you talking about?? Im positive they werent just members of 1 sect that made up either of the 2 booked groups and there were religious Jews as passengers who arent a part of any sect = arent Hassidism and werent allowed to fly to BUD
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