Shocking Anti Semitic incident

Old May 17, 22, 6:58 pm
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
I did hear her in broken English try to say the reason you cant fly to BUD is since you all are a part of 1 group and several members decided they dont have to listen to the crews instructions therefore the whole group even the innocent ones cant fly, which was what she was told by someone.Yes it was WRONG to do that especially since it wasnt only 1 group traveling together, but Im still waiting a week later for proof that the person/s who issued the ban is an AS and hates Jews. Banning Jews doesnt mean youre an AS, and Banning blacks doesnt mean youre a racist
No idea which video you heard, but in the video I uncovered, she said nothing about a group. She said it was the Jews.
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Old May 17, 22, 7:05 pm
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
well1stly since this has become a come out thread I will also. I am a Shomer Shabbos male who wears a black hat and a black suit and white shirt on Shabbos with a beard too boot, but dont travel dressed like that (except with the beard ). so I guess you can say Im Litvish w/a twist

I already addressed your Black question up thread and said had 125 black men been banned from flying that doesnt mean the person who banned them was/is a racist. In order to call that person/s a racist youd have to dig alot further and see if that is in fact the truth or not. I couldnt care 1 bit if every single media outlet said it was due to Racism. But my case with the Indian passengers out of LHR they were dressed in the traditional Indian clothes, I wouldnt want a repeat of that flight and Im not anti-Indian

As to why all the religious were grouped together is due to not having the knowledge that a Gur Hassid isnt Satmar, that Satmar isnt Visnitz etc etc what seems to have mattered is if you were outwardly looking like a religious Jew. So a religious Jew was on the plane they didnt know it wasnt 1 cohesive group they thought everyone was 1 group coming from the same place. That may speak of ignorance but doesnt mean its a case of AS
Sorry, but nobody is mixing up a 20 year Satmar chosid in full regalia with a 40 year old modern Orthodox guy in a polo traveling with his 12 year old daughter. Their only commonality is being Jewish.
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Old May 17, 22, 7:28 pm
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
No idea which video you heard, but in the video I uncovered, she said nothing about a group. She said it was the Jews.
So? its one thing if she said it was due to you damn Jews or its was the damn Jews fault. Look she may in fact be a AS, I dont know I do know her command of the English language isnt that good.

The LH group must have close to a dz flights into TLV on a daily basis, Im sure if they found an employee to be an AS they have worked for the last time for the LH group.And she is the low person on the pole, who up the ladder was the person/s who ordered the ban for 24 hrs, I doubt it was her. And ordering the ban doesnt mean that person/s are anti-semitic, and again I doubt LH will want that person/s to remain in that position when found out. the Capt of the BUD flight can make the decision who can and cant fly on the flight they are Capt of , they cant ban you for 24 hrs.

In the end it may end up some of the crew members are AS or the supervisor is or the Capt of the JFK flight and /or the BUD flight as well. I just havent seen where thats the case as of yet. I believe until the police got a hold of the Buffalo killers manifesto and social media accts they didnt say he was a racist, things pointed that way but they didnt have proof till they saw those items. Thats all Ive been saying, show me the proof that any of the LH employees involved are anti-semites, appearing that they may be and actually being are 2 different things

and whats those IDIOTS excuse for calling The Police Nazi's or Your grandparents will be proud of you????? Seems everyone in Germany+ whom doesnt agree with you are an AS. Some are, I know I had encounters with some of them Id say the vast vast majority arent,
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Old May 17, 22, 7:34 pm
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
Sorry, but nobody is mixing up a 20 year Satmar chosid in full regalia with a 40 year old modern Orthodox guy in a polo traveling with his 12 year old daughter. Their only commonality is being Jewish.
Yes they did , they assumed wrongly that anyone that was a religious Jew was flying as 1 group all together, again you are assuming things just as I am but havent provided concrete proof Id say their commonality was they were all religious Jews outwardly, now was their a passenger say Morris Cohen that was banned and Morris wasnt religious and they asked him if he was Jewish or not and he said he was Jewish and they said you cant fly
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Old May 17, 22, 8:16 pm
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
Yes they did , they assumed wrongly that anyone that was a religious Jew was flying as 1 group all together, again you are assuming things just as I am but havent provided concrete proof Id say their commonality was they were all religious Jews outwardly, now was their a passenger say Morris Cohen that was banned and Morris wasnt religious and they asked him if he was Jewish or not and he said he was Jewish and they said you cant fly
So was it collective punishment based on being dressed the same or not? Many seem to believe that yes, so please tell me how you can mix up a person dressed like a Hassid with one that dresses modern orthodox (where even their kippah is different) or a Jewish woman?

Sorry, but I got lost with your other posts and we seem to be going in circles on some of the things.

Let's drop the anti-semitism accusation, but I'd like to ask if I may, was it discriminatory behavior or not? If this happened to another racial or religious group would it be considered discriminating against them? Keep in mind that not only people dressed in Hasidic garb were banned before answering me. I don't buy that if this would happen to blacks there wouldn't be an outcry claiming they were discriminated against.
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Old May 17, 22, 8:47 pm
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Originally Posted by friedablass View Post
So was it collective punishment based on being dressed the same or not? Many seem to believe that yes, so please tell me how you can mix up a person dressed like a Hassid with one that dresses modern orthodox (where even their kippah is different) or a Jewish woman?

Sorry, but I got lost with your other posts and we seem to be going in circles on some of the things.

Let's drop the anti-semitism accusation, but I'd like to ask if I may, was it discriminatory behavior or not? If this happened to another racial or religious group would it be considered discriminating against them? Keep in mind that not only people dressed in Hasidic garb were banned before answering me. I don't buy that if this would happen to blacks there wouldn't be an outcry claiming they were discriminated against.
i couldnt care 1 bit how it may have played out if instead of religious Jews they were black,green,purple etc etc You can buy and not buy whatever you want, till theres such a case youre simply guessing on an outcome for something that hasnt happened. What was wrong was assuming since a bunch of people appeared to be together to punish all that did look a certain way, period! Since it appears there wasnt a non-religious Jewish person on the JFK flight also heading to BUD we will never know if they would been allowed on or not. BUT we do know a male religious Jew who had a cap on and a black shirt that didnt appear to be a member of the religious group was allowed on and not asked if he was Jewish so if AS was the reason the so called group wasnt allowed to fly why was he or why wasnt each passenger allowed to fly asked "are you Jewish"? and if they said no they were allowed to board and who knows what would have been if they said they were, the Point is they werent asked why not, maybe just maybe they werent looking to ban "Jews" but were looking to ban the group of religious Jews which are 2 different things. I dont get why you dont get that. Nor do we know what would have been say if a religious Jew flew in from say LA would they have been allowed him to board since they werent on the JFK flight or would he have been told since there were problems with the religious Jewish passenger who flew in from JFK and arent being allowed to travel onward sorry but you too cant travel onwards

So we have to deal with the knowns, which it seems is that several religious Jewish passengers did not obey the cabin crews instructions when spoken to on the JFK flight, as a result someone @ LH decided that these folks cant be trusted to listen to the next flights crew and will be banned from flying for 24 hrs so that they will know they have to listen to the crew when spoken to. The common thing those banned had was being on the JFK flight and looking as a religious Jew outwardly. The LH person not being able to ID which were the passengers who didnt listen applied the ban to anyone that supposingly was flying together in that 1 group (which they werent) Lastly the CEO said that ban under the conditions it was done Never should have been done, simply to punish everyone due to not knowing the culprits and assuming they were all actually traveling togethe,r what am I missing?

Now had they asked each passenger for the BUD flight are you Jewish , then I would agree 1000% with you and Dan. Was that asked of each passenger? if not why not? could it be that they werent banning a person simply due to being a Jew

As Friday said on Dragnet, Mam the facts Mam just tell me the facts.
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Last edited by craz; May 17, 22 at 8:58 pm
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Old May 17, 22, 11:42 pm
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The facts are very clear. No offense, but I'm sorry to say that what you're saying is not.

We can agree to disagree as it seems we probably aren't looking at the same set of facts and we keep going in circles here.
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Old May 18, 22, 12:03 am
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
Again, what made these people a group? Not sure why I need to keep repeating myself here.
You make them a group, the blog makes them one, and all those who complained to the blog certainly make themselves one.

I'm not accusing LH of systemic racism, but I am accusing those who decided that all Jews on the flight constituted a group.
You do when you claim that they were barred from continuation for being Jewish.
See my response to sossos below - the assumption of the people at FRA to think that these were all "members of the same cult", wasn't an unreasonable one. In the light of first assessment, not as a final judgement of course.

Pretending that no anti-Semitism existed in the incident is downright chilling.
I think you are committing the age old fallacy of conflating a race / nationality / religion and in this case sub-sect of a religion.
People may use insensitive language but generally they mean "that group", not the entire race.
And yes perhaps there were some racists present - the one who called all officers "Nazis" certainly was one ... people have a right to wrong thoughts. They just should contain them.
So I am not claiming that no antisemitism was at work, I just don't think that it has met the burden of proof.

I respond to the individual questions below but it seems to me that you interpret too much into that "group" thing. As a bad Protestant, I cannot tell the uniforms of the Catholics apart, let alone people who wear insignia of the Jewish faith. Who @ FRA would have been aware of that obscure pilgrimage of a subset of a faith the vast majority of locals do not remotely understand - and should not have to. So yes, grouping "visible faith members" who travel together to a common destination is not unreasonable. The fear that there is some bad group dynamics at work that will possibly impact flight safety is absolutely reasonable. Wrong perhaps but very reasonable.
Also on a 747, there are some 300 passengers around to keep 100 unruly ones in check. On an A320 this won't be the case anymore. From a safety point of view, dispersing the group was the logical thing to do. Much like the police does with protestors which then also impacts the law abiding protestors.

Originally Posted by s0ssos View Post
The leadership of Germany welcomed immigrants. The people of Germany did not. Are these immigrants a "group?"
You just put all Germans sans their "leadership" into one group. So the 99.99% now are the group of xenophobes?

A group is anything that the inference engine of your brain can cluster into a common characteristic. The members of the group don't have to agree with your assessment. Most Lemmings probably don't think that they like other Lemmings because they are part of the same species.

The Nazis defined themselves as a group, the "Aryans" or so I've been told
Perhaps they did. But outside of their fine taste in weaponry, you really shouldn't use them as a role model. They frankly sucked as a political system and greatly contributed to widespread trouble.

"..Adolf Hitler and many Nazi officials had dark hair and were still considered members of the Aryan race under Nazi racial doctrine,"
What did you expect? That the leaders recuse themselves from their made-up ideal???
They obviously weren't that ideological when it comes to their personal flaws. Do you think that they would have behaved better if they more "racially pure" and more blond? I don't sense the message here.

"The immigrants to Germany recently came from many different places. Are they "a group?"
Obviously you don't perceive them as a group and I don't, so let's settle for "no".

The US has issues with this (obviously). Does a Hispanic person have to vote a certain way or have certain beliefs, otherwise they aren't Hispanic?
Again, you should not make the gaffes of politicians your philosophical role model. You can stand apart from Biden and National Socialists.

Asians is purportedly the "model minority" but there are many different countries in Asia and their immigrants are as different as night and day. Should they get all lumped together?
What are you planning? Lumping some 4+ billion people together?


Someone said cause they dress the same. So, they are a group because they wear similar clothes?
Why do you need other people's opinion on proper grouping???

Does that mean people in the plane who wear tshirts and jeans also constitute a group? Or is that just ridiculous?
At a tailcoat gala, they would absolutely make for a group....
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Old May 18, 22, 6:00 am
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Originally Posted by weero View Post
You make them a group, the blog makes them one, and all those who complained to the blog certainly make themselves one.

You do when you claim that they were barred from continuation for being Jewish.
.
So because I run the top Jewish points blog, I make them a group. Cool story.
And if you read the story, you would know that I researched and found the pax, not vice versa.

Originally Posted by weero View Post
You do when you claim that they were barred from continuation for being Jewish..
Uh, that was a Lufthansa supervisor that said all Jews on the flight were banned.
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Old May 18, 22, 6:03 am
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Originally Posted by weero View Post

At a tailcoat gala, they would absolutely make for a group....
haven't been here for a while, and now I see I've been missing out on weeroism much
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Old May 18, 22, 6:07 am
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Originally Posted by friedablass View Post
The facts are very clear. No offense, but I'm sorry to say that what you're saying is not.

We can agree to disagree as it seems we probably aren't looking at the same set of facts and we keep going in circles here.

the problem is you are looking at 2 1s and deciding that equals 11 since there are 2 1s involved
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Old May 18, 22, 6:41 am
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Originally Posted by Dave_C View Post
I think this thread probably needs a time out.
As many debates go, this will continue for a while...


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Old May 18, 22, 10:31 am
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
So because I run the top Jewish points blog, I make them a group. Cool story.
You make it sound like a group is a bad thing.
And if you read the story, you would know that I researched and found the pax, not vice versa.
I did indeed miss that.
So you were able to identify them by common characteristics....

Uh, that was a Lufthansa supervisor that said all Jews on the flight were banned.
After 2 years of fake news, I'm not yet ready to believe that. Not saying it is outright false but it sounds so over the top that it feels out of context or trimmed.
But I will try to find a longer video.
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Old May 18, 22, 10:45 am
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Originally Posted by weero View Post
.
So you were able to identify them by common characteristics....
Not exactly 1 of the 2 TAs (maybe both) are mainstays on his site , so Im sure he put them together and posted on here as well 'chff '
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Old May 18, 22, 10:50 am
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Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
.


Uh, that was a Lufthansa supervisor that said all Jews on the flight were banned.
well that didnt happen and it seems they Never asked each passenger who was called up if they were Jewish in order to board the BUD flight, they relied on what a person was wearing. So they werent after The Jews as much as the religious Jews that were on the JFK flight, you and Freida may think/feel its one and the same I dont and many others dont as well
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