ctownflyer

Yitzy also wasn't told to mask on LH401. And he is not Hasidic or wearing their dress.
My point was that LH didn't just ban everyone from LH401 from LH for 24 hours. They only banned the Jews.

craz

Understood, but unless the 2 non-Jews who were allowed to board also didnt comply with LHs policy and were constantly being admonished to comply with the mask rule then why shouldnt they be allowed to fly. I know they only banned the Jews which was wrong for putting all the Jews into 1 group which they werent except for being Jewish and religious. But that in of of itself to me at least doesnt mean it was done due to anti-semitism, although it just may have been the reason but Ive yet to see any proof to that

As Ive said numerous times if the 401s crew couldnt ID each person who broke the rules then you cant punish everyone who looks like them and thats where LH made its mistake. Now if it turns out that the refusing to allow them to fly was done by the Capt of the BUD flight then things are different since a Capt can off load anyone they deem will be a potential threat to the flight, but I doubt the Capt can ban those passengers from all flights for 24 hrs only his/her flight

1 additional point did they ask permission to use the galley for a minyan? On almost every flight Ive been on its been asked and not simply done and its worked out so the minyan wont be taking place when they need to be working in the galley.(thats before I started davening by myself in my seat) and Ive been on flights when permission wasnt asked and all of a sudden 15 - 20 people simply tried to take over the galley, it wasnt pretty

Flying Lawyer

i think this is the difference in approach. Nobody has been punished. There were unidentified persons hiding in this group constituting a possible danger for airtraffic. A comparable approach was taken by the US government when banning all travellers holding specific passports from entering the US.

craz

Thats going way way to far, I dont believe a single passenger was " a possible danger for airtraffic". they were some who might have not followed LHs mask policy at worst, and has LH canned that 1st class FA who also it seems wasnt masked all the time? Im not saying its OK not to listen to LHs policy whatever it maybe, and a person has every right to call it stupid but then DONT fly on LH till it changes its policy, the answer isnt to fly dont mask up and to tell them why its a stupid policy

8420PR

The correct approach is to:
(1) Cancel the connection for only the passengers that refused to follow the rules,
(2) If that's not possible, cancel the connection for only the passengers that were booked with the group (same booking) that included passengers refusing to follow the rules..
(3) If that's not possible, cancel the connection for all passengers on LH401.

All 3 of the above options might be right or wrong from a business point of view, but definitely don't involve discrimination against people for their religion or how they dress.

The clearly incorrect thing to do was to cancel the connection just for passengers that were Jewish, or dressed in Jewish clothes as that is discrimination (anti-Semitism in this case). I'm reasonable sure nobody woke up that morning planning to do this, and the situation and results escalated from many relatively small things, but still that was the result.

craz

Problem #1 for your #2 they did that, they thought everyone was on 1 group so they didnt allow them to travel to BUD. Then problem was no one anywhere it seems checked to see if in fact everyone was flying as 1 group/. It shouldnt have been to difficult once the manifest is looked at to see everyone wasnt traveling in a single group

you forgot #4 everyone flys since they dont know who the culprits are with a warning to ALL those on the BUD flight , to take not this is required of you on the flight and this can not be done anyone not adhereing to our T&Cs will be arrested upon arrival to BUD an dall further travel cancelled

Flying Lawyer

You take a (maybe) practical approach, I take a legal approach. A "danger" in the legal meaning of German law refers to the breach of binding rules. And the incident was not only about masks. In "Jüdische Allgemeine" we read about blocking the ailes and emergency exits, abusive and aggressive language against FA and fellow passengers and last but not least about masks. A group of passengers not following reasonable orders and becoming abusive or aggressive is a danger for airtraffic. Do you want to take responsibility and wait until it comes to a fight??

Flying Lawyer

I personally would have refused to board a plane when it is required to give a warning to people that they will be arrested if they continue with their conduct the way they did on their inbound flight. I this is considered necessary, then they really have a problem. Your proposal does not give justice to other fellow passengers. Do you want to wait until something happens?

Flying Lawyer

I have not seen any evidence that the connection was cancelled for Jewish passengers in genetal. I see some evidence that the connection has been cancelled for passengers who belonged the the group to be identified by the clothing and outfit not following instructions and rules on the inbound fligt. Do you want to teach the FC of the BUD flight how to interpret safety rules? The same could have happened and has happened to people in football shirts, hockey shirts or Bavarian costumes on their way to Oktoberfest.

This it the appropriate reaction if the disturbance in a high risk area comes from people not to be identified and hiding in a group of other people with a comparable profile.

This happens everyday in Europe if some people in a legal demonstration become aggressiv or some fans in a football stadium start a riot. As kids in a school we learn that it is best to get away from such incidents as soon as possible and I did more than once. If a pax belonging to this specific group did not sympathize with the wrongdoers such pax could have asked to be reseated. Other pax obviously did so and were reseated.

friedablass

Besides for that one article (which seems to be exaggerating on many of the facts), where else has this been corroborated?

Flying Lawyer

A reputed Jewish newspaper "seems to be exaggerating on many of the facts".
So only the reports you like are acceptable for you??

Excuse me, I am out here. This appears not to be a place for arguments but a thread for bashing LH and German authorities. Safe travels.

craz

If in fact (I dont know German law) it falls under potential danger then I dont have a problem with it

Ive been on 1000s of flights and unless it was say a 60 - 90 min flight or a puddle jumper with a very low ceiling, almost every flight would result in some folks standing or walking around especially on a TATL or TPAC flight. Cant recall the last time at least on AA,DL,UA Intl that the crew forbid anyone from getting out of their seats or yes even hanging in the exit area. Practically and probably unknown to LH since everyone already prayed by the gate there wasnt going to be a pray gathering. 2- FRA-BUD is probably a single aisle plane so no exit ares to gather at and really no place to stand in the aisles

I agree no matter how much you may disagree a person MUST listen to the crews instructions and its dumb to argue about it up in the air, not following crews instructions is grounds I believe to be off loaded

IMO its dumb to say you must mask up on board but you dont have to in the term @ FRA, so therefore as long as it was made known to me that a mask was requried it was my choice to still fly LH thats the end of the discussion I have to mask up correctly! If I dont want to, I dont have a problem with that as long as that person flys on a Carrier that leaves it up to the passenger which LH doesnt.

Many Americans dont get that just because things are 1 way in The US that doesnt mean its like that Worldwide. so if US carriers dont have a mask requirement that doesnt mean every other carrier doesnt as well

personally I dont take at face value what either so called witnesses have said , I dont believe it was just 2 or 3 Jewish passengers that acted up nor the majority and I dont believe it was as bad as the ones you quoted said it was. Both sides had axes to grind.Would be nice to know what the total passenger count was on the JFK flight and if the Jewish passengers were the vast majority of those flying. It does make a difference as it did when I was flying 1 time LHR-NY and the flight was almost all Indian people and not being used to them I did wish I was on any other flight but that one. they didnt do anything wrong its just mannerisms I wasnt use to it and felt uncomfortable.

friedablass

No, only the ones that are corroborated.

I do believe that a good investigation to get all the details is on order here but I'm not sure we'll get that.

In general, they shouldn't be bashed (unless it's proven that this is a pervasive ongoing issue), but in this particular incident they do deserve it.

Safe travels to you as well.

craz

I ran into that all weekend long when this incident came up and I didnt cowtail to the LH is anti-semitic blah blah blah, or unless you have proof that the woman supervisor is in fact an anti-semitic dont call her one I kept repeating over and over.

Whats funny is they bash LH but have no problems buying tkts on TK which is owned by The Turkish Govt and thusly giving that great Jew/Israel lover Erdogan money to continue carrying on

Personally I have 2 LX flights coming up in a couple of weeks and plan to be on them and yes had it been LH I would have flown them as well, until such time as someone presents proof that LH is anti-semitic and Ive yet to see any

Did LH mess up Yep and they could have done alot better and I expected them to

craz

theres a big difference bet you and FL, 1- they have DUS listed as their base and Im assuming are bared to practice Law in Germany, Im not are You? FL looks at things from a legal view point most others are from an emotional view point, Many guilty people have been found not guilty in The US due to a technicality , you can scream all you want they murdered your baby they will go scout free your lawyer will try and console you but theres not much they can do

Its extremely important to know where German law stands as that is what will determine the outcome should it get into Court, not what You,I or any of the passengers feel and think. Most likely it wont get that far as it would prolong a PR nightmare for LH, and just as UA settled with Dao (in my opin they shouldnt have) doesnt mean there was any AS involved