weero

I don't see how this would not sour the inter-cultural relations between the police cohort and the pilgrims.

While I have never personally tested using the Nazi word to address a German officer of the law, I would personally not be surprised, if they took umbrage at that equivocation.

craz

it wasnt like over 100 people shouted it at once, and it was more like 1 or 2 Idiots who said it, and thats 1 or 2 Idiots too many

ctownflyer

I'm not surprised that one idiot said it and I'm not surprised at the umbrage.
I just don't think that was the root cause of any issues, other than a tense moment caught on camera.

friedablass

It quite obviously wasn't the cause since the police were only there in the first place because they were summoned by LH to make sure not a single of those 100++ passengers get on board.

The (very wrong) decision to not allow them all onto their connecting flight was already made well before the idiot used that word.

stevendorechester

Terrible behavior on behalf on both Lufthansa and the German police.

First of all those who broke the law should have been throw in jail.

The ones who were denied boarding should have just walked on to the plane with the police being ordered not to intervene.

I hope those denied boarding sue the airline in a US court and get millions as airline liability is not limited in these circumstances. In my opinion this case is the same as a US carrier denying boarding to 100 black people because other black people caused problems. That would cost millions per passenger and millions in bad publicity.

friedablass

I'm with you, but if the police was summoned to prevent those passengers from boarding, who was going to order them not to intervene when those people board?

craz

The police were there to so call maintain order and keep things from escalating into a riot and or damage being done.It wasnt their call who can and who cant fly

craz

[QUOTE=friedablass;34250681


Maybe I haven't been to every single EU airport and as a law abiding person perhaps I don't really pay attention, but I didn't see these kind of riot police patrolling all over the place at the multiple airports I have been to.

Even if it is normal to see them around the airport, it is not the norm to see several dozen of them together concentrated on 1 area/ gate. Yes, they were summoned to ward off a potential riot, but that doesn't make it less ominous by saying it's a standard sight in EU airports.

So I think if I'd have been there during this incident it might have been somewhat traumatic as well, especially if I'd be clueless as to why I was being treated as a criminal if I hadn't done anything wrong. Of course if I would be one of the rule breakers then it would be coming to me, but if I followed all the rules and then was met with this scene I would certainly be stressed.[/QUOTE]


Have you ever spent a Shabbos or Yom Tov in a European Country lets say in the past 10 years? I ask because in most Countries the main shuls be it Orthodox,Conservative or Reform have police with sub machine guns guarding them. yet they arent called Nazi or asked that they be removed since those coming to shul are terrorized by their presence. If anything when Belgium was gonna remove them the community cried out against them being removed

i dont know if they are there during the week but I saw it for myself in a few cities on Shabbos, nor do I know if any of the police at the BUD gate ever guarded a shul or will one day

weero

You were clear about this - I myself would be surprised if that wasn't a root cause for any issues as you put it.

Just from the perspective of those with the guns: they meet a "uniform gang" who were reported to have cause extensive trouble above the skies - for which the law was called in after all. With the police - unaware that the crowd was on multiple PNRs - get verbally assaulted by that very apparent group. 2 dozen officers isn't a large assembly and they are trained in spotting aggression.

Sounds like a perfect setup for extensive miscommunications to me.

thbe

Of course ultra-orthodox did terrorize other passengers on that flight. Not wearing mask was just a little problem compared with being a thread for the security of the plane.

If that group were Muslims or Afro-Americans, they would have been carried out of the plane by CBP and DHS.

I’ve learned from that incident, that in cases like that I will document every kind of unruly behavior and complain about it.

And it’s ridiculous that you think not wanting to be a part of LH is antisemitic.

Flying Lawyer

The root cause of any issue was a certain smaller (as alleged here) or larger chunk (as reported in Jüdische Allgemeine) of people belonging to a group wearing some kind of common outfit not following cabin crew's and flight captain's instructions (which were fully in line with the laws and so more common sense behavior on board of an aircraft), disturbing other pax on a night flight and the consequential educated decision of another flight captain of the BUD flight, informed by the captain of the inbound flight, that unidentified and unidentifiable members of this group wearing some kind of common outfit could constitute a risk for the flight. This had nothing to do with religion, nationality and so more nothing to do with race as all persons I could see appeared to be of Caucasian origin.

Dave_C

As both a British Police Officer, and someone who is Jewish, I strongly suspect that the incident would have been handled very differently in the UK.

The number of officers, in my view, was inappropriate. I'm sure two of them could have handled the situation perfectly adequately. By having so many, it comes across as oppressive and disproportionate. I do think the German police mishandled the situation and if I was a senior leader there, would be asking questions of my team to see how they could have handled it more appropriately. In addition, I've been called many things during my career. I appreciate that being called a Nazi is a particular 'hot button' to both the Germans and the Jewish community in different ways, but again, the should have and could have responded better.

However this is secondary. The initial response from Lufthansa, and the subsequent follow-ups are a management 101 in how not to handle a situation like this. I'm a UK-based SEN with a lowly single status star, and it has absolutely made me question if I want to spend my money with the Lufthansa Group. I probably still will, but might send a booing or two back over to BA as I'm lucky enough to have a choice living in London.

I do want to see a better response from Lufthansa, and actually I do think it's right that they get sued. Getting sued will both drive awareness at the senior leadership level of the cost of such incidents, the cost of mishandling the response, and should drive organisational change in areas such as mandatory employee training for diversity and inclusion, as well as unconscious bias.

Dave_C

Firstly, I have no doubt that a number of ultra-orthodox passengers did what they wanted and ignored the flight and cabin crew.

However, in the absence of being able to positively identify them, I would argue that it is grossly disproportionate to ban for 24 hours all passengers that it could have been. Especially if you are using a particular racial characteristic to make that determination. That's what's called racial profiling and is wrong.

Flying Lawyer

Whether this was appropriate or not has to be decided under German law. From a helicopter perspective, I would say, the level of appropriate intervention depends on the risks involved. The higher the risk is, the stronger is the intervention allowed and required.

The flight captain of the BUD flight obviously took the judgement that this group of pax dressed in some kind of common outfit could constitute a risk for the flight and took his decision.

There was certainly no racial profiling involved because any racial profiling requires the existence of a certain race. The flight had people on board of Caucasian origin, dressed in some kind of common outfit and behaving in a certain common manner.

moebod

Sure. It was only about the clothing! come on.... they were made a group because of their religion. Them wearing similar clothing is a way these people dress in that religion. Its like saying the nazis didnt kill jews, they killed a group of people that wore the same headcover and clothing.....