LH fleet after restart
 

I've read an opinion that there may be significant developments (internally only, of course) in LH plans for the long-haul fleet and First/Biz...

First Class terminal in FRA to close permanently- F class lounges stay
779 may come with F after all (presumably 4 not 8, whether suite or not)
748 will keep F (again, whether 4 or 8)
There'll be no F from MUC - does that have implications for F lounges or do they keep them for HONs ?
Instead MUC will have a kind of premium Business on the 359- no F on 359
346 and 380 won't be back
No idea what will happen to 330, 744 and 343... Keep old C ? Get new C ? Get premium Business too..?? Or are those types on the way out ?

Has anyone heard any of this or can throw any light on it ?

I know it's tricky to speculate in the current climate but if anyone has solid ideas on this I'd be interested...

What would "Premium Business" be exactly?

Maybe like MH (Malaysian) where the seat product is kind of F-ish meaning a suite and decent footprint, but service, food and beverages are all C-class. Books into highest C-Class fare bucket IIRC. YMMV.

I am pretty much with you on this.

I think the 330, 744 and 343, these won't be refurdbished.

The one thing I am thinking is.... will they really go to NO F from MUC?

If F is something LH wants to keep, there's no technical reason they can't put F on the airbus fleet (including the A359) in MUC. And reducing the cabin to 4 seats will help things for LH, I'm sure.

Must ask, is this pure speculation or any shred of confirmation?

LHG expects a major aircraft delivery wave starting 2023 (next batch of A359 (some of which will/may have a min F cabin with 4 seats), B789 etc) . I doubt they will change/defer those orders, mainly because they expect a recovery to 2019 levels by then. The B744s were suppose to retire in 2023-25 to be replaced by B779. The A343s are supposed to go in the same time frame, and the A330s are supposed to last till 2026-32. The B748 will stay for a while, 7 or 14 A380 were already on their way out (planned exit 2023). The B772 and B763 of OS urgently need replacement, that was probably supposed to be done with the new B789. The A346 is gone, its capacity in MUC will be filled by A359 post 2023.

As an additional info, I read yesterday that the planned deliveries were/are the major sticking point in the negotiations with the federal government.

There is a lot of speculation that the German govt will try to get caveats like the French did to AF. The probelm is that is you want a sustainable fleet you need to weed out the old ineffecient aircraft and induct the new. Also cancelling Boeing orders costs money, so insisting on an all EU built Airbus fleet for new additions is....

So I guess "Premium Business" or "Business Plus" or Executive First" or whatever name it would get might be several things: with the new business class seat on 779 they could give up the fight for superiority in terms of seating (after all, the 1-1-1 / 1-2-1 config suggested for C class on 779 is better than current F in 748, 380 and 346) - they could offer a premium ground / cabin service on the same seat. That has the neatness and simplicity that LH appears to be aiming for these days because it mirrors the shorthaul product (same seat but nobody next to you, different service.) Or they could make adjustments to a few seats in C (front couple of rows or the 1-1-1 rows, I suppose), maybe to make them a bit more like a suite, and keep the service the same. Or they could do a different seat and different service but then why not just call it new First class...?

Well, the Handelsblatt (and possibly others) mentioned something about the federal government (it's unclear who that means these days) adding a last-minute requirement to the LH rescue package. The story of this rescue package is rightly being described in Germany now as an endless economic thriller (!) as it has been going on so long and has seen so many twists and turns. This latest change would mean LH being obliged to take all the Airbus a/c it has ordered and not to cancel any... It mentions about 125 (total) orders for A320 neo / A321 neo / 359 plus some more for LX.

To make the thriller even more exciting, the German press has also been mentioning that the EU Commission is now potentially objecting to the 9 billion rescue package... Saying it would have to be treated more like a takeover from a monopolies perspective... LH could be forced to give up slots etc. to maintain a level playing field with the competition.

Thank you Oliver! I clean forgot the 789 in the list which now starts this thread...

I guess the 789 could well up with OS/LX (and possibly even SN/EW but less likely.)

I'm particularly interested in the future of F... If some 789 went to LX would they have F as all the LX l/h fleet currently still has F ? Is it likely that 779 will now have F after all - LH said they wouldn't as they were 744 replacements...? There has been talk of F on the next wave of 359 (from 2023 as you say, not the batch currently being delivered) but could they change this to a kind of premium business...?

And is it likely F-class terminal in FRA will close?...

Thanks to all for any opinions. I know it all remains speculation at this stage but if there is some truth in these suggestions, then they represent pretty big developments to what was known up to now.

The FCT has been rumoured to close a few times over. F will remain a product at LH both in MUC & FRA. I suppose the expansion at LX is on hold for now (big fleet of B77W, the A330 are relatively young, A343 just refurbished), so the new B789 and A359 will plug upcoming gaps in the LH/OS fleet.

... So you think it's more likely the 2023 batch of 359 could get 4xF (presumably a new F?) and you don't think this "premium business" product will be introduced at all?
And the 789 if they go to LH? The likelihood of F on those a/c...?

No clue. See the discussion of the future of F and the fleet planned use in post # 94 here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luft...oing-away.html

747-400s are out anyway, gas guzzlers :(

Yes and not so many left now in any case...

I think it's important to list what we know and what is speculation at this point:

A380s the remaining seven are stored in MUC with the option for reactivation. Other than that there are no planes with F left in MUC as all MUC based A346s are being stored or retired.

In FRA we'll have the remaining few A346s that aren't being retired (there are still a few in shedule so far) as well as all 748s with F.

We don't know weither the FCT is being closed any time soon. Afaik the 77X is being delivered without F (if it's being delivered at all), but this might obviously change.
The 2023 A350s were reported to get 4 F seats, but we don't know if that is still the case.

We don't even know where the 789s will be going (my guess would be LH and OS), but deliveries are still a few years out so much can change until then.


My hopes would be that the A380's are being reactivated and the future A359s would be delivered with F as a direct A346 replacement. I wouldn't really mind if the 77X order would be switched to 789s (without F most probably) (for LH and OS to replace the 343s 747s 767s and 777s and potentially SN?) and 77F (for LH Cargo) instead, I'm not really a fan of the type.
I really hope that their Business Plus whatever concept isn't being done, I dislike everything about it and hope they keep the traditional F instead.

So if I could chose I'd have LH operate their 748s with F as well as the 789s and the A330s from FRA, while MUC would have the A380s and A350s (some with F).
OS would receive 9 or 10 789s to replace their 767s and 777s.
SN would operate a fleet of A330s.
Eurowings longhaul will be hopefully scrapped by then.
A350s for EDW and LX and I'm happy.

Looks like I'm not the only one who loves to speculate on these things and it would be so nice to get some clarity for future planning, but I guess so much is up in the air now...

On whether First Class stays on LH:
- purely based on how much money you make by selling one First Class seat, I think you could argue it either way: plenty of airlines (such as TK) have been able to do nicely without it and plenty of others (such as QR, AF, CX) seem happy to restrict it to certain routes / aircraft. On the other hand, there are routes where F is almost certainly a money spinner. One argument says the real extra cost of first class service is not enormous, so even if pax aren't paying much more than a C ticket, they're not costing much more either and the profit is decent. Perhaps someone here know more on that? I'm also not sure what the Fcls terminal in FRA costs- does the land belong to LH or do they rent it from Fraport? And how pricey are the limousine/catering contracts etc?
- Seeing it more widely, if you do away with F completely, it's tricky to get around the "downgrade" effect- your offer used to go up to First, now only business. You can try to introduce some form of "Business First" but it needs careful presentation and it's a gamble. And if LX keeps F on every l/h flight, it would be odd if the "daddy" LH has no F at all. Also, F probably does bring in revenue indirectly due to incentivising awards, e-vouchers, hoped-for free upgrades etc.

My guess would be that F stays on balance.

As to where and on which aircraft F is offered:
- 748 seem set to stay for at least a while, so I guess F stays there. I agree that 380 may come back briefly but will soon be gone, the same as 343, 346 and 744. I'm still not convinced about 779- I think F would work well there but CS and co have seemed very certain that it's coming without. I think 789 could go to OS (those 763 and 772 from Lauda etc. surely can't go on much longer!!) and possibly also to LH without F. If any go to LX I guess they will need F. 330 could slosh around between FRA/MUC and/or SN and possibly OS but won't get F back. So that would leave the second batch of 359 (20 are planned) to have F.
- A "neat and simple" option for a fleet with F could be 748 (19 of them) at FRA and 359 (20 of them) at MUC. Whether that's anywhere close to the suggested 50% of l/h fleet having F would depend on where 330 and 789 are put. As I say I really hope they do change their mind on 779 so it comes with F after all. I agree that ditching F completely at MUC and replacing it with some form of "Business Plus" would be risky, if only due to the political support CS has received in the bailout negotiations from a certain Bavarian politician. And if I'm wrong and 748 (4 engines) follow the 380 to the scrap yard soon, that changes things again. And I might be totally wrong anyway!!

Things are never simple !!

As of tomorrow, the complete A346 fleet is planned to be stored at TEV. I doubt you‘ll see these birds again...

I don't think they actually will store all of them. Fact that they once made decision like that does not matter they can change their original decision at any point.

I just got today rebooked for beginning of July from MUC-HKG to FRA-HKG as both supposed to be A346, but only MUC flight was changed to A359. So by todays knowledge some A346 will remain operational on FRA as they simply do not have enough planes with F there without.
But will see.

[QUOTE=FlyerLX;32402150
My guess would be that F stays on balance.
[/QUOTE]

Without First class it is very difficult to be 5* airline or even premium airline.
Specially when the C product is technically... let say not superb.
Also as LX will have F on all long haul routes (and it will), then yes, it will look idiotic, that main airline of group will not have F.

Also the HON program supports F and vice versa.
The product on the ground is 1:1 same (or a little bit even to benefit HON).
And there is difficult to any business to harm itself more than anrgy out most core customers. Y class tourists was never main source of income. C and F are.

Also, to make F almost non-exist cause migration of usually F customers to another airlines.
And will be very difficult (and expensive) to get those customers later back.

........Without First class it is very difficult to be 5* airline or even premium airline.....

Yes I agree but as a famous comedian said, it's not the principal that counts, it's the money...:) I'm not sure airlines are bothered about Skytrax etc. these days...

.....Specially when the C product is technically... let say not superb.....

I couldn't agree more and like many I refuse to fly l/h business on LH (I don't have a foot fetish), but then with 779 we are told there will be a "brilliant" new C class (!) with 1-1-1 / 1-2-1 seating which in theory at least is "better" than the current F. Hopefully that or something similar will then roll out across the fleet. We are told there could also be some kind of "business plus" product (so a two-tier business class, however they would do it and whatever they would call it...)

.....Y class tourists was never main source of income. C and F are.....

Hmm... LH never went down the "niche premium airline" route and in recent years they have gone for huge volumes rather than cash crops, so I would guess Y and C overall might be more profitable than F... Not per seat obviously but overall...

....Also, to make F almost non-exist cause migration of usually F customers to another airlines......

Sure but they would have to decide where they can go... Depends on base location, destination, budget... And plenty of target airlines have no F anyway or highly reduced...

My flights to/from BOG in July is still scheduled with A346 (however, I'm in no doubt that these LH flights will be cancelled eventually as Colombia is unlikely to open its border and allow international flights by July).

Fewer 747s and A380s to fly on makes me sad.

I certainly hope F is maintained. LH business class seat is less than good - I don't think I've ever managed to sleep properly. Without the opportunity to fly F, I would reconsider whether to fly with Lufthansa in future... though depending on what happens with my HON requalification. No F and no HON would definitely take me elsewhere!

In case you don’t know, requalification criteria will not change next year.

It seems on May 20 some insight about the future situation (till summer 2023) was published in One, the internal LH newsapp. The A380 will exclusively operate from MUC together with A359. FRA will become a B748, B744 and B779 hub. The A346 in TEV stay there, and the A330/343 fleet allocation will be decided later.

This part surprises me a little. Any speculation why this was decided?

Thank you Oliver... So thinking (and speculating!) a bit more about F I guess that makes it more likely that:
- in FRA 779 will get F (otherwise only F on 748), and
- in MUC later 359s will get F (otherwise only F on 380).
- 330 could end up going to replace 763 and 772 (museum objects by now) at OS.

Is there any word on this idea of "Business Plus" ? Or do you think it's just a rumour with nothing to back it up?

LH announced they were looking into it as well as considering it, but there is no offical plan to introduce it yet.

Considering that all the A330s and A343s are based in FRA I'm not sure how much shifting could be done there. I suppose some of the 789s would replace the 343s in FRA then.
Unless of course LH decides to shift more of the longhaul towards MUC.

The B789 and new A359 will come in/after 2023, so the above was the plan on how to weather the covid downturn anyway. I can imagine the A330/343 are kept as a flexible reserve to serve routes that are thin on off days or just in general, like AUS/PTY/BOG etc.

Nooooooooooooo
I need F for an award next year for BOG.
A330 probably not possible due to altitude (2600m)

I have also F tickets to BOG for autumn. So I also hope, they will manage to operate it with F capable a/c.
Or reroute via GRU or etc.

A343 can manage nicely to BOG.

My Colombia trip this summer is down the drain now. Colombia is closed for all international flights until 31 Aug. Still my flights on LH543/543 to/from BOG are not cancelled in the reservation. It seems that at some stage I will have cancel/rebook/take a voucher etc.

A word of caution in respect to entering Colombia from Brazil. Unless you have a transit in Brazil only, you will be required to show proof of yellow fever vaccination when you check-in at GRU, GIG etc for your Colombia bound flight. Many reports of pax being denied boarding at GRU because either no yellow fever vaccination or no proof of vaccination. Please note that this is only relevant for non-Colombian citizens and flights from Brazil til Colombia - from (most) other countries you can enter Colombia without yellow fever vaccination.

OT: Everyone can get a yellow fever vaccination for free at BOG airport (landside) - but obviously, that will not help anyone at the check-in counters in Brazil being refused to board because of no yellow fever vaccination.

Why not get that yellow fever vaccination already at home?
I have it and no problem. It is clearly marked on vaccination passport and I am sure it is enough also in GRU

It certainly is. But the fact is that still many travllers don't have yellow fever vaccination (also because you need to pay for it outside Colombia). I didn't have it until I arrived Colombia and last summer at GRU for check-in with AV to BOG it turned out to be very lucky that I brought my yellow vaccination booklet. I have never used it before but on this day if helped me to get on the flight - I witnessed other non-Colombian pax being refused check-in because of no yellow fever vaccination proof - rumors were that the flight was badly oversold !

Also note that I had a 6 hour connection in GRU and they said they can’t be certain I didn’t leave the airport so I had to show my vaccination certificate.

luckily I always keep it with my passport when I travel...