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-   -   LH fleet after restart (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufthansa-austrian-swiss-brussels-lot-other-partners-miles-more/2018366-lh-fleet-after-restart.html)

FlyerLX May 24, 20 1:29 pm

LH fleet after restart
 
I've read an opinion that there may be significant developments (internally only, of course) in LH plans for the long-haul fleet and First/Biz...

First Class terminal in FRA to close permanently- F class lounges stay
779 may come with F after all (presumably 4 not 8, whether suite or not)
748 will keep F (again, whether 4 or 8)
There'll be no F from MUC - does that have implications for F lounges or do they keep them for HONs ?
Instead MUC will have a kind of premium Business on the 359- no F on 359
346 and 380 won't be back
No idea what will happen to 330, 744 and 343... Keep old C ? Get new C ? Get premium Business too..?? Or are those types on the way out ?

Has anyone heard any of this or can throw any light on it ?

I know it's tricky to speculate in the current climate but if anyone has solid ideas on this I'd be interested...

mmff May 24, 20 4:08 pm


Originally Posted by FlyerLX (Post 32400557)
I've read an opinion that there may be significant developments (internally only, of course) in LH plans for the long-haul fleet and First/Biz...

First Class terminal in FRA to close permanently- F class lounges stay
779 may come with F after all (presumably 4 not 8, whether suite or not)
748 will keep F (again, whether 4 or 8)
There'll be no F from MUC - does that have implications for F lounges or do they keep them for HONs ?
Instead MUC will have a kind of premium Business on the 359- no F on 359
346 and 380 won't be back
No idea what will happen to 330, 744 and 343... Keep old C ? Get new C ? Get premium Business too..?? Or are those types on the way out ?

Has anyone heard any of this or can throw any light on it ?

I know it's tricky to speculate in the current climate but if anyone has solid ideas on this I'd be interested...

What would "Premium Business" be exactly?

demue May 24, 20 11:37 pm

Maybe like MH (Malaysian) where the seat product is kind of F-ish meaning a suite and decent footprint, but service, food and beverages are all C-class. Books into highest C-Class fare bucket IIRC. YMMV.

Gioventu May 25, 20 12:53 am


Originally Posted by mmff (Post 32400866)
What would "Premium Business" be exactly?

Lufthansa Premium Business Class

Lewis42 May 25, 20 1:18 am


Originally Posted by FlyerLX (Post 32400557)
I've read an opinion that there may be significant developments (internally only, of course) in LH plans for the long-haul fleet and First/Biz...

First Class terminal in FRA to close permanently- F class lounges stay
779 may come with F after all (presumably 4 not 8, whether suite or not)
748 will keep F (again, whether 4 or 8)
There'll be no F from MUC - does that have implications for F lounges or do they keep them for HONs ?
Instead MUC will have a kind of premium Business on the 359- no F on 359
346 and 380 won't be back
No idea what will happen to 330, 744 and 343... Keep old C ? Get new C ? Get premium Business too..?? Or are those types on the way out ?

Has anyone heard any of this or can throw any light on it ?

I know it's tricky to speculate in the current climate but if anyone has solid ideas on this I'd be interested...

I am pretty much with you on this.

I think the 330, 744 and 343, these won't be refurdbished.

The one thing I am thinking is.... will they really go to NO F from MUC?

sophialite May 25, 20 1:44 am

If F is something LH wants to keep, there's no technical reason they can't put F on the airbus fleet (including the A359) in MUC. And reducing the cabin to 4 seats will help things for LH, I'm sure.

LondonElite May 25, 20 2:01 am


Originally Posted by FlyerLX (Post 32400557)
I've read an opinion that there may be significant developments (internally only, of course) in LH plans for the long-haul fleet and First/Biz...

First Class terminal in FRA to close permanently- F class lounges stay
779 may come with F after all (presumably 4 not 8, whether suite or not)
748 will keep F (again, whether 4 or 8)
There'll be no F from MUC - does that have implications for F lounges or do they keep them for HONs ?
Instead MUC will have a kind of premium Business on the 359- no F on 359
346 and 380 won't be back
No idea what will happen to 330, 744 and 343... Keep old C ? Get new C ? Get premium Business too..?? Or are those types on the way out ?

Has anyone heard any of this or can throw any light on it ?

I know it's tricky to speculate in the current climate but if anyone has solid ideas on this I'd be interested...

Must ask, is this pure speculation or any shred of confirmation?

oliver2002 May 25, 20 2:15 am

LHG expects a major aircraft delivery wave starting 2023 (next batch of A359 (some of which will/may have a min F cabin with 4 seats), B789 etc) . I doubt they will change/defer those orders, mainly because they expect a recovery to 2019 levels by then. The B744s were suppose to retire in 2023-25 to be replaced by B779. The A343s are supposed to go in the same time frame, and the A330s are supposed to last till 2026-32. The B748 will stay for a while, 7 or 14 A380 were already on their way out (planned exit 2023). The B772 and B763 of OS urgently need replacement, that was probably supposed to be done with the new B789. The A346 is gone, its capacity in MUC will be filled by A359 post 2023.

LondonElite May 25, 20 2:17 am

As an additional info, I read yesterday that the planned deliveries were/are the major sticking point in the negotiations with the federal government.

oliver2002 May 25, 20 2:28 am

There is a lot of speculation that the German govt will try to get caveats like the French did to AF. The probelm is that is you want a sustainable fleet you need to weed out the old ineffecient aircraft and induct the new. Also cancelling Boeing orders costs money, so insisting on an all EU built Airbus fleet for new additions is....

FlyerLX May 25, 20 2:45 am


Originally Posted by mmff (Post 32400866)
What would "Premium Business" be exactly?

So I guess "Premium Business" or "Business Plus" or Executive First" or whatever name it would get might be several things: with the new business class seat on 779 they could give up the fight for superiority in terms of seating (after all, the 1-1-1 / 1-2-1 config suggested for C class on 779 is better than current F in 748, 380 and 346) - they could offer a premium ground / cabin service on the same seat. That has the neatness and simplicity that LH appears to be aiming for these days because it mirrors the shorthaul product (same seat but nobody next to you, different service.) Or they could make adjustments to a few seats in C (front couple of rows or the 1-1-1 rows, I suppose), maybe to make them a bit more like a suite, and keep the service the same. Or they could do a different seat and different service but then why not just call it new First class...?


Originally Posted by LondonElite (Post 32401678)
As an additional info, I read yesterday that the planned deliveries were/are the major sticking point in the negotiations with the federal government.

Well, the Handelsblatt (and possibly others) mentioned something about the federal government (it's unclear who that means these days) adding a last-minute requirement to the LH rescue package. The story of this rescue package is rightly being described in Germany now as an endless economic thriller (!) as it has been going on so long and has seen so many twists and turns. This latest change would mean LH being obliged to take all the Airbus a/c it has ordered and not to cancel any... It mentions about 125 (total) orders for A320 neo / A321 neo / 359 plus some more for LX.

To make the thriller even more exciting, the German press has also been mentioning that the EU Commission is now potentially objecting to the 9 billion rescue package... Saying it would have to be treated more like a takeover from a monopolies perspective... LH could be forced to give up slots etc. to maintain a level playing field with the competition.


Originally Posted by oliver2002 (Post 32401672)
LHG expects a major aircraft delivery wave starting 2023 (next batch of A359 (some of which will/may have a min F cabin with 4 seats), B789 etc) . I doubt they will change/defer those orders, mainly because they expect a recovery to 2019 levels by then. The B744s were suppose to retire in 2023-25 to be replaced by B779. The A343s are supposed to go in the same time frame, and the A330s are supposed to last till 2026-32. The B748 will stay for a while, 7 or 14 A380 were already on their way out (planned exit 2023). The B772 and B763 of OS urgently need replacement, that was probably supposed to be done with the new B789. The A346 is gone, its capacity in MUC will be filled by A359 post 2023.

Thank you Oliver! I clean forgot the 789 in the list which now starts this thread...

I guess the 789 could well up with OS/LX (and possibly even SN/EW but less likely.)

I'm particularly interested in the future of F... If some 789 went to LX would they have F as all the LX l/h fleet currently still has F ? Is it likely that 779 will now have F after all - LH said they wouldn't as they were 744 replacements...? There has been talk of F on the next wave of 359 (from 2023 as you say, not the batch currently being delivered) but could they change this to a kind of premium business...?

And is it likely F-class terminal in FRA will close?...

Thanks to all for any opinions. I know it all remains speculation at this stage but if there is some truth in these suggestions, then they represent pretty big developments to what was known up to now.

oliver2002 May 25, 20 3:52 am

The FCT has been rumoured to close a few times over. F will remain a product at LH both in MUC & FRA. I suppose the expansion at LX is on hold for now (big fleet of B77W, the A330 are relatively young, A343 just refurbished), so the new B789 and A359 will plug upcoming gaps in the LH/OS fleet.

FlyerLX May 25, 20 4:03 am


Originally Posted by oliver2002 (Post 32401816)
The FCT has been rumoured to close a few times over. F will remain a product at LH both in MUC & FRA. I suppose the expansion at LX is on hold for now (big fleet of B77W, the A330 are relatively young, A343 just refurbished), so the new B789 and A359 will plug upcoming gaps in the LH/OS fleet.

... So you think it's more likely the 2023 batch of 359 could get 4xF (presumably a new F?) and you don't think this "premium business" product will be introduced at all?
And the 789 if they go to LH? The likelihood of F on those a/c...?

oliver2002 May 25, 20 4:12 am

No clue. See the discussion of the future of F and the fleet planned use in post # 94 here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luft...oing-away.html

Granite64 May 25, 20 4:52 am

747-400s are out anyway, gas guzzlers :(


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