LH fleet after restart

Old May 25, 20, 4:57 am
  #16  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Oneworld Silver
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by Granite64 View Post
747-400s are out anyway, gas guzzlers
Yes and not so many left now in any case...
FlyerLX is offline  
Old May 25, 20, 5:38 am
  #17  
Hyatt Contributor BadgeMandarin Oriental Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: ZRH
Programs: LX, SK *G, FPC, GA/AG
Posts: 2,094
I think it's important to list what we know and what is speculation at this point:

A380s the remaining seven are stored in MUC with the option for reactivation. Other than that there are no planes with F left in MUC as all MUC based A346s are being stored or retired.

In FRA we'll have the remaining few A346s that aren't being retired (there are still a few in shedule so far) as well as all 748s with F.

We don't know weither the FCT is being closed any time soon. Afaik the 77X is being delivered without F (if it's being delivered at all), but this might obviously change.
The 2023 A350s were reported to get 4 F seats, but we don't know if that is still the case.

We don't even know where the 789s will be going (my guess would be LH and OS), but deliveries are still a few years out so much can change until then.


My hopes would be that the A380's are being reactivated and the future A359s would be delivered with F as a direct A346 replacement. I wouldn't really mind if the 77X order would be switched to 789s (without F most probably) (for LH and OS to replace the 343s 747s 767s and 777s and potentially SN?) and 77F (for LH Cargo) instead, I'm not really a fan of the type.
I really hope that their Business Plus whatever concept isn't being done, I dislike everything about it and hope they keep the traditional F instead.

So if I could chose I'd have LH operate their 748s with F as well as the 789s and the A330s from FRA, while MUC would have the A380s and A350s (some with F).
OS would receive 9 or 10 789s to replace their 767s and 777s.
SN would operate a fleet of A330s.
Eurowings longhaul will be hopefully scrapped by then.
A350s for EDW and LX and I'm happy.
gru_muc likes this.

Last edited by Nick Art; May 25, 20 at 5:44 am
Nick Art is online now  
Old May 25, 20, 7:13 am
  #18  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Oneworld Silver
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by Nick Art View Post
I think it's important to list what we know and what is speculation at this point:

A380s the remaining seven are stored in MUC with the option for reactivation. Other than that there are no planes with F left in MUC as all MUC based A346s are being stored or retired.

In FRA we'll have the remaining few A346s that aren't being retired (there are still a few in shedule so far) as well as all 748s with F.

We don't know weither the FCT is being closed any time soon. Afaik the 77X is being delivered without F (if it's being delivered at all), but this might obviously change.
The 2023 A350s were reported to get 4 F seats, but we don't know if that is still the case.

We don't even know where the 789s will be going (my guess would be LH and OS), but deliveries are still a few years out so much can change until then.


My hopes would be that the A380's are being reactivated and the future A359s would be delivered with F as a direct A346 replacement. I wouldn't really mind if the 77X order would be switched to 789s (without F most probably) (for LH and OS to replace the 343s 747s 767s and 777s and potentially SN?) and 77F (for LH Cargo) instead, I'm not really a fan of the type.
I really hope that their Business Plus whatever concept isn't being done, I dislike everything about it and hope they keep the traditional F instead.

So if I could chose I'd have LH operate their 748s with F as well as the 789s and the A330s from FRA, while MUC would have the A380s and A350s (some with F).
OS would receive 9 or 10 789s to replace their 767s and 777s.
SN would operate a fleet of A330s.
Eurowings longhaul will be hopefully scrapped by then.
A350s for EDW and LX and I'm happy.
Looks like I'm not the only one who loves to speculate on these things and it would be so nice to get some clarity for future planning, but I guess so much is up in the air now...

On whether First Class stays on LH:
- purely based on how much money you make by selling one First Class seat, I think you could argue it either way: plenty of airlines (such as TK) have been able to do nicely without it and plenty of others (such as QR, AF, CX) seem happy to restrict it to certain routes / aircraft. On the other hand, there are routes where F is almost certainly a money spinner. One argument says the real extra cost of first class service is not enormous, so even if pax aren't paying much more than a C ticket, they're not costing much more either and the profit is decent. Perhaps someone here know more on that? I'm also not sure what the Fcls terminal in FRA costs- does the land belong to LH or do they rent it from Fraport? And how pricey are the limousine/catering contracts etc?
- Seeing it more widely, if you do away with F completely, it's tricky to get around the "downgrade" effect- your offer used to go up to First, now only business. You can try to introduce some form of "Business First" but it needs careful presentation and it's a gamble. And if LX keeps F on every l/h flight, it would be odd if the "daddy" LH has no F at all. Also, F probably does bring in revenue indirectly due to incentivising awards, e-vouchers, hoped-for free upgrades etc.

My guess would be that F stays on balance.

As to where and on which aircraft F is offered:
- 748 seem set to stay for at least a while, so I guess F stays there. I agree that 380 may come back briefly but will soon be gone, the same as 343, 346 and 744. I'm still not convinced about 779- I think F would work well there but CS and co have seemed very certain that it's coming without. I think 789 could go to OS (those 763 and 772 from Lauda etc. surely can't go on much longer!!) and possibly also to LH without F. If any go to LX I guess they will need F. 330 could slosh around between FRA/MUC and/or SN and possibly OS but won't get F back. So that would leave the second batch of 359 (20 are planned) to have F.
- A "neat and simple" option for a fleet with F could be 748 (19 of them) at FRA and 359 (20 of them) at MUC. Whether that's anywhere close to the suggested 50% of l/h fleet having F would depend on where 330 and 789 are put. As I say I really hope they do change their mind on 779 so it comes with F after all. I agree that ditching F completely at MUC and replacing it with some form of "Business Plus" would be risky, if only due to the political support CS has received in the bailout negotiations from a certain Bavarian politician. And if I'm wrong and 748 (4 engines) follow the 380 to the scrap yard soon, that changes things again. And I might be totally wrong anyway!!

Things are never simple !!
Nick Art likes this.
FlyerLX is offline  
Old May 25, 20, 9:10 am
  #19  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: HAM
Posts: 2,445
Originally Posted by Nick Art View Post
In FRA we'll have the remaining few A346s that aren't being retired (there are still a few in shedule so far) as well as all 748s with F.
As of tomorrow, the complete A346 fleet is planned to be stored at TEV. I doubt you‘ll see these birds again...
curt is online now  
Old May 25, 20, 10:16 am
  #20  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Usually seat 1A, home:Tallinn
Programs: LH -- HON Circle **, IHG Spire Elite, Hilton Gold, 1865 Voyager
Posts: 346
Originally Posted by curt View Post
As of tomorrow, the complete A346 fleet is planned to be stored at TEV. I doubt you‘ll see these birds again...
I don't think they actually will store all of them. Fact that they once made decision like that does not matter they can change their original decision at any point.

I just got today rebooked for beginning of July from MUC-HKG to FRA-HKG as both supposed to be A346, but only MUC flight was changed to A359. So by todays knowledge some A346 will remain operational on FRA as they simply do not have enough planes with F there without.
But will see.
Raul_R is offline  
Old May 25, 20, 10:24 am
  #21  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Usually seat 1A, home:Tallinn
Programs: LH -- HON Circle **, IHG Spire Elite, Hilton Gold, 1865 Voyager
Posts: 346
[QUOTE=FlyerLX;32402150
My guess would be that F stays on balance.
[/QUOTE]

Without First class it is very difficult to be 5* airline or even premium airline.
Specially when the C product is technically... let say not superb.
Also as LX will have F on all long haul routes (and it will), then yes, it will look idiotic, that main airline of group will not have F.

Also the HON program supports F and vice versa.
The product on the ground is 1:1 same (or a little bit even to benefit HON).
And there is difficult to any business to harm itself more than anrgy out most core customers. Y class tourists was never main source of income. C and F are.

Also, to make F almost non-exist cause migration of usually F customers to another airlines.
And will be very difficult (and expensive) to get those customers later back.
Raul_R is offline  
Old May 25, 20, 10:49 am
  #22  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Oneworld Silver
Posts: 154
........Without First class it is very difficult to be 5* airline or even premium airline.....

Yes I agree but as a famous comedian said, it's not the principal that counts, it's the money... I'm not sure airlines are bothered about Skytrax etc. these days...

.....Specially when the C product is technically... let say not superb.....

I couldn't agree more and like many I refuse to fly l/h business on LH (I don't have a foot fetish), but then with 779 we are told there will be a "brilliant" new C class (!) with 1-1-1 / 1-2-1 seating which in theory at least is "better" than the current F. Hopefully that or something similar will then roll out across the fleet. We are told there could also be some kind of "business plus" product (so a two-tier business class, however they would do it and whatever they would call it...)

.....Y class tourists was never main source of income. C and F are.....

Hmm... LH never went down the "niche premium airline" route and in recent years they have gone for huge volumes rather than cash crops, so I would guess Y and C overall might be more profitable than F... Not per seat obviously but overall...

....Also, to make F almost non-exist cause migration of usually F customers to another airlines......

Sure but they would have to decide where they can go... Depends on base location, destination, budget... And plenty of target airlines have no F anyway or highly reduced...
FlyerLX is offline  
Old May 25, 20, 11:36 am
  #23  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Programs: TK Elite, HH G
Posts: 6,427
Originally Posted by Raul_R View Post
I don't think they actually will store all of them. Fact that they once made decision like that does not matter they can change their original decision at any point.

I just got today rebooked for beginning of July from MUC-HKG to FRA-HKG as both supposed to be A346, but only MUC flight was changed to A359. So by todays knowledge some A346 will remain operational on FRA as they simply do not have enough planes with F there without.
My flights to/from BOG in July is still scheduled with A346 (however, I'm in no doubt that these LH flights will be cancelled eventually as Colombia is unlikely to open its border and allow international flights by July).
SK AAR is online now  
Old May 27, 20, 4:55 am
  #24  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Birmingham, UK
Programs: LH HON*
Posts: 19
Fewer 747s and A380s to fly on makes me sad.

I certainly hope F is maintained. LH business class seat is less than good - I don't think I've ever managed to sleep properly. Without the opportunity to fly F, I would reconsider whether to fly with Lufthansa in future... though depending on what happens with my HON requalification. No F and no HON would definitely take me elsewhere!
EJJBHX is offline  
Old May 27, 20, 5:02 am
  #25  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Berlin, SW Florida, and Toronto
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton Diamond, Discovery Black, and assorted others
Posts: 27,761
Originally Posted by EJJBHX View Post
Fewer 747s and A380s to fly on makes me sad.

I certainly hope F is maintained. LH business class seat is less than good - I don't think I've ever managed to sleep properly. Without the opportunity to fly F, I would reconsider whether to fly with Lufthansa in future... though depending on what happens with my HON requalification. No F and no HON would definitely take me elsewhere!
In case you don’t know, requalification criteria will not change next year.
LondonElite is offline  
Old May 27, 20, 5:04 am
  #26  
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, External Miles & Points Resources
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 39,395
It seems on May 20 some insight about the future situation (till summer 2023) was published in One, the internal LH newsapp. The A380 will exclusively operate from MUC together with A359. FRA will become a B748, B744 and B779 hub. The A346 in TEV stay there, and the A330/343 fleet allocation will be decided later.
FlyerLX and gru_muc like this.
oliver2002 is offline  
Old May 27, 20, 5:25 am
  #27  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Berlin, SW Florida, and Toronto
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton Diamond, Discovery Black, and assorted others
Posts: 27,761
Originally Posted by oliver2002 View Post
It seems on May 20 some insight about the future situation (till summer 2023) was published in One, the internal LH newsapp. The A380 will exclusively operate from MUC together with A359. FRA will become a B748, B744 and B779 hub. The A346 in TEV stay there, and the A330/343 fleet allocation will be decided later.
This part surprises me a little. Any speculation why this was decided?
LondonElite is offline  
Old May 27, 20, 5:30 am
  #28  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Oneworld Silver
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by oliver2002 View Post
It seems on May 20 some insight about the future situation (till summer 2023) was published in One, the internal LH newsapp. The A380 will exclusively operate from MUC together with A359. FRA will become a B748, B744 and B779 hub. The A346 in TEV stay there, and the A330/343 fleet allocation will be decided later.
Thank you Oliver... So thinking (and speculating!) a bit more about F I guess that makes it more likely that:
- in FRA 779 will get F (otherwise only F on 748), and
- in MUC later 359s will get F (otherwise only F on 380).
- 330 could end up going to replace 763 and 772 (museum objects by now) at OS.

Is there any word on this idea of "Business Plus" ? Or do you think it's just a rumour with nothing to back it up?
FlyerLX is offline  
Old May 27, 20, 6:34 am
  #29  
Hyatt Contributor BadgeMandarin Oriental Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: ZRH
Programs: LX, SK *G, FPC, GA/AG
Posts: 2,094
Originally Posted by FlyerLX View Post
Thank you Oliver... So thinking (and speculating!) a bit more about F I guess that makes it more likely that:
- in FRA 779 will get F (otherwise only F on 748), and
- in MUC later 359s will get F (otherwise only F on 380).
- 330 could end up going to replace 763 and 772 (museum objects by now) at OS.

Is there any word on this idea of "Business Plus" ? Or do you think it's just a rumour with nothing to back it up?
LH announced they were looking into it as well as considering it, but there is no offical plan to introduce it yet.
Nick Art is online now  
Old May 27, 20, 6:35 am
  #30  
Hyatt Contributor BadgeMandarin Oriental Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: ZRH
Programs: LX, SK *G, FPC, GA/AG
Posts: 2,094
Originally Posted by oliver2002 View Post
It seems on May 20 some insight about the future situation (till summer 2023) was published in One, the internal LH newsapp. The A380 will exclusively operate from MUC together with A359. FRA will become a B748, B744 and B779 hub. The A346 in TEV stay there, and the A330/343 fleet allocation will be decided later.
Considering that all the A330s and A343s are based in FRA I'm not sure how much shifting could be done there. I suppose some of the 789s would replace the 343s in FRA then.
Unless of course LH decides to shift more of the longhaul towards MUC.

Last edited by Nick Art; May 27, 20 at 6:45 am
Nick Art is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: