LH's creative thinking to reject a chargeback

Old May 22, 20, 3:28 am
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LH's creative thinking to reject a chargeback

I did not find a thread about chargebacks but if a suitable one exists, dear Moderators please merge.

There was recently a thread started by Andaz about LH's rejection of a chargeback, and I experienced the same thing today.

I had a ticket from KBP to LHR via FRA for 03/26 and back on 03/29. Lufthansa canceled all flights from KBP 10 days before I was due to travel. Since I booked via Expedia I tried calling them to ask for a refund but it was impossible to get through, so after 2 weeks of trying I gave up, called my bank (Citi) and asked if it was OK for me to initiate a chargeback due to it being impossible to contact the merchant. They said that I should go ahead and so I did.

Citi forwarded Lufthansa's response today rejecting the chargeback, and that must have been the most ridiculous and dishonest response I have read. Lufthansa must have some boilerplate response that its agents fill in without bothering to check what actually happened.
The response started with stating that the passenger would not have been able to enter the country at his destination due to the travel restrictions effective in Ireland. Then there was a link to check all travel restrictions and words to the effect that according to Article blah-blah LH has the right to refuse to carry a passenger to prevent violation of applicable immigration laws. That was the first thing that raised eyebrows as I was not traveling either to or through Ireland.
Then it got more interesting as in the very next line Lufthansa wrote that I was travelling from JFK to KBP and due to the above-mentioned restrictions in Ireland I would not have been allowed to enter the country at KBP and therefore Lufthansa had the right to refuse transportation. Since the ticket was non-refundable I am due only taxes and fees, And then a long list of my options to rebook with a EUR50 bonus.

I honestly am not sure what to think of the response as it simply makes no sense. A) LH did not refuse transportation but simply canceled the flights 10 days before the travel. B). I was not travelling to KBP (they even attached a copy of the ticket with the complete itinerary). I was starting in Ukraine, which is where I live. C) My destination was the UK which did not and still does not have any entry restrictions. Where did Ireland and JFK come into play is beyond me. One would have to really try to come up with such nonsense.

This is not it as Citi has not closed the case but simply asked me to reply, and I am not sure how to find nice words to call out LH on their BS.

I did not mean to complain or anything with this post. I was just amused with the response and wanted to share it for entertainment and as a data point

Last edited by Andriyko; Yesterday at 2:31 am Reason: Spelling
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Old May 22, 20, 4:00 am
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Well -looks like they mixed your case with another one.
But I guess it is easy for you to send Citi your actual itinerary and the cancellation info to prove that their response has nothing to do with your case...
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Old May 22, 20, 6:39 am
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Let this thread be an example for some others about how to complain
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Old May 22, 20, 6:48 am
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If this fails it seems its now clearly stated you can rebook anytime you want without any extra fees.
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Old May 22, 20, 10:58 am
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I told everyone that Lufthansa make up these nonsense stories do deny your chargeback.
People just started calling me names, and telling me that I am stupid or whatever.

It doesn't even matter if they are truth or false, they just make something up which I said. It's not even relevant to your booking. It has happened, not only to me but several others as well. Sadly my booking was with Revolut and they won't do anything. I am cancelling my account there for SUREEEE after this is over. Never putting any money into Revolut again.

I have applied for a law suite against LH according to a insolvency law since they have to refund money within 7 days. (And yes, while I do understand the circumstances my case was probably one of the first bookings since it involved Mainland China). I have been waiting well over 3 months now for my refund.
It's not very easy to process against an airline outside your "living" country but we have enforcements that deal with this, it just costs some money.

I have recorded phonecalls with LH which I intend to use as "evidence" or whatever they may need to proceed.

Have a nice day! Hope it works out for everyone.

We will see where this takes us. First time I am trying this road so I have no idea.

Be lucky that Citi has "not closed" your case as Revolut did. They simply just bought everything Lufthansa said and told me I should contact the law enforcement in my country to proceed against the merchant. Revolut won't do anything to dispute what LH "said and made up".
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Old May 22, 20, 11:28 am
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Originally Posted by Andaz View Post
I told everyone that Lufthansa make up these nonsense stories do deny your chargeback.
People just started calling me names, and telling me that I am stupid or whatever.

It doesn't even matter if they are truth or false, they just make something up which I said. It's not even relevant to your booking. It has happened, not only to me but several others as well. Sadly my booking was with Revolut and they won't do anything. I am cancelling my account there for SUREEEE after this is over. Never putting any money into Revolut again.

I have applied for a law suite against LH according to a insolvency law since they have to refund money within 7 days. (And yes, while I do understand the circumstances my case was probably one of the first bookings since it involved Mainland China). I have been waiting well over 3 months now for my refund.
It's not very easy to process against an airline outside your "living" country but we have enforcements that deal with this, it just costs some money.

I have recorded phonecalls with LH which I intend to use as "evidence" or whatever they may need to proceed.

Have a nice day! Hope it works out for everyone.

We will see where this takes us. First time I am trying this road so I have no idea.

Be lucky that Citi has "not closed" your case as Revolut did. They simply just bought everything Lufthansa said and told me I should contact the law enforcement in my country to proceed against the merchant. Revolut won't do anything to dispute what LH "said and made up".

Yes you told us, but in a very 'different' way; even involving Carsten Spohr and his family?? I understand it's frustrating, but please think before you click that 'submit reply' button.
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Old May 22, 20, 1:53 pm
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Originally Posted by Andriyko View Post
This is not it as Citi has not closed the case but simply asked me to reply, and I am not sure how to find nice words to call out LH on their BS.
Keep all your communications brief, concise and emotionless.

In principle, all you need to do is to calmly repeat the facts to your bank:

1) you booked an LH flight from A to B (via FRA) on date x,
2) LH cancelled your flights in date y,
3) you requested a refund in date z,
4) LH failed to process the refund until date z+7 as mandated by EC261/2004 and reiterated in the latest EC notice letters.

You should attach proof of 1), 2) and 3). Good luck.
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Old May 22, 20, 1:54 pm
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Well, for me that all sounds to me like credit card fraud on the site of Lufthansa.
Lufthansa (merchants) makes up a phony story (a lie) to justify the charge.
Usually, this must have serious consequences against the merchant by the credit card acquirer and merchant bank.
Of course, I wouldn't advocate to go directly after the family of Carsten Spohr.
However, a note to the police for a potential credit card fraud should be warranted.
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Old May 22, 20, 2:00 pm
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Originally Posted by mmff View Post
Keep all your communications brief, concise and emotionless.

In principle, all you need to do is to calmly repeat the facts to your bank:

1) you booked an LH flight from A to B (via FRA) on date x,
2) LH cancelled your flights in date y,
3) you requested a refund in date z,
4) LH failed to process the refund until date z+7 as mandated by EC261/2004 and reiterated in the latest EC notice letters.

You should attach proof of 1), 2) and 3). Good luck.
And maybe
5) LH failed to provide evidence that the chargeback due to points 1) to 4) isn't warranted
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Old May 22, 20, 2:06 pm
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Originally Posted by mmff View Post
Keep all your communications brief, concise and emotionless.

In principle, all you need to do is to calmly repeat the facts to your bank:

1) you booked an LH flight from A to B (via FRA) on date x,
2) LH cancelled your flights in date y,
3) you requested a refund in date z,
4) LH failed to process the refund until date z+7 as mandated by EC261/2004 and reiterated in the latest EC notice letters.

You should attach proof of 1), 2) and 3). Good luck.
I had a somewhat similar situation, but with Ethiopian Airlines. I did a dispute with Chase. I did pretty much exactly what you outlined here. I had bought the tickets through the Chase Travel portal, so I had to go through them. I also contacted Ethiopian Airlines directly. I submitted to Chase my original itineraries, the cancellations, the offer for vouchers, and screenshots of my conversations (via chat) with both Chase Travel and Ethiopian Airlines. I also included a copy of the DOT's warning to airlines about passengers of canceled flights being entitled to refunds, not vouchers.

The dispute is still being processed, but the charges have been credited for now.
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Old May 22, 20, 4:21 pm
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Still waiting for my refund from LH, it's now been 3mo
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Old Yesterday, 10:46 am
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Originally Posted by warakorn View Post
Well, for me that all sounds to me like credit card fraud on the site of Lufthansa.
Lufthansa (merchants) makes up a phony story (a lie) to justify the charge.
Usually, this must have serious consequences against the merchant by the credit card acquirer and merchant bank.
Of course, I wouldn't advocate to go directly after the family of Carsten Spohr.
However, a note to the police for a potential credit card fraud should be warranted.
I believe calling it a fraud would be taking things too far, especially mentioning or going after particular individuals. It is not fraud but a silly attempt by the airline to avoid refunding the money. I understand that they do not want to; it's just amusing that they could not even get their facts straight in their response. I mean, do they really think that Kiev is in Ireland? Or what were they thinking claiming that I was travelling from the USA to KBP and that I would not have been allowed into Ukraine (or is it Ireland?), putting aside the fact that they knew which passport I hold because I provided it at the time of the booking.

mmff, thank you for the advice. That's the answer that I have prepared. I agree that people, myself included, tend to be emotional in their first reaction and it makes sense to step back and think about what you want to write,

Andaz, I understand that you are angry and frustrated - I was angry too when I read the reply, but then I just laughed because the reply was silly. Anger won't get you too far, you're doing yourself a disfavour, and especially going after a family of the CEO who have nothing to do with your plight. If you see no other resolution but to file a lawsuit that is your right. I hope you will get your money back but also that you won't spoil your nerves while doing that.
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Old Yesterday, 10:27 pm
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Angry LH denies chargeback blaming travel restrictions

Hi,

I wanted to share my experience with a chargeback for Lufthansa with Chase.
Their current tactic seems to be to completely ignore the fact that they canceled the flight and blame it on travel restrictions:
"Passenger was unable to fly irrespective of the merchant's willingness to travel."

10.01.2020 Booked First Class Flight KBP-JNB with LH for 16.04.2020

22.03.2020 Checked booking constantly and found out that LX cancelled my inbound flight, both LH and LX at that time already stopped notifying people about cancelled flights because of overwhelmed call centres (scandal in itself) so I have no email but made screenshots of the booking status and also e-ticket with flight status cancelled

22.03.2020 Called LH first and they cancelled the ticket saying a full refund would be no problem but could take a bit longer (legally they are obliged for 7 days).
I only received a short mail saying that “the booking has been cancelled” but not stating any refund or the fact that it was cancelled because the flight has been cancelled by the airline.

06.04.2020 Disputed Charge with Chase (made with Sapphire Reserve Visa Credit) on the basis that the promised refund did not hit my bank account within 14 days although legal requirement is 7 days

23.05.2020 LH denied chargeback on the basis that South Africa closed borders on April 1st and I would not have been able to enter.

It’s quite stunning they use this tactic given that the flight has been cancelled on March 22nd (maybe even earlier) before the travel restrictions where even in place. The flight also never operated (so far to their "merchant willingness to travel").

Would you try and dispute the charge again?

Thanks,
Tokyonson
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Old Yesterday, 10:37 pm
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Back to the topic, Ukrainian legislation does not prohibit having accounts in foreign banks or foreign currencies to residents of the country. Anyone can freely open an account in a foreign bank, whether it is located in Ukraine or abroad if the bank grants permission to. Indeed, most banks require that an account holder resides in the country where the bank operates, but exceptions exist, too, such as UNFCU.

Last edited by totti; Yesterday at 11:18 pm
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Old Yesterday, 10:55 pm
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Seems like a similar situation as the one being discussed in this thread: LH's creative thinking to reject a chargeback.
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