Often1

As a smart CEO, I would be on the phone to my bankers, my finance ministry and the ECB.

Andriyko

There is only one side - the passenger's side. It is the passenger's money and whatever plight the airlines found themselves in should be of no concern to the passengers. We did not give the airlines our money with a stipulation that they can keep them without delivering the service should their cashflow needs call for it. There really should be no arguing about it. What is the solution for all those businesses which we did not give our money to up front and which must survive somehow? Why should the airlines be in this position that they can use someone else's money without people's consent? What about those who need their own money to survive without a job or with a pay cut? I can see your point and I understand what situation the airlines are in, but it should be up to passengers to decide what to do with their money.

He can prioritize whatever he wants as long as he prioritizes how to spend his money. No need to prioritize mine or someone else's. I did not receive a call from him asking me how I was doing and whether I needed to preserve my cashflow.
As regards the politicians. They really did not ask us either, did they? Oxfam forecasts that 500 million people will be forced into poverty because of the measures introduced due to Covid-19. 3 million children die from undernutrition each year (I guess those deaths do not matter as they are not announced on TV every hour). Half a billion people in poverty will mean more deaths among children and adults. Whose health and lives they're prioritizing is not really clear. And even if the governments are saving lives of some people at the expense of the lives of other people, they at least are trying to offer some help to those who suffer from financial hardship. Airlines just decided to keep our money and to prioritize their health over ours, the owners of the money. But again, their cashflow should be of no concern to passengers, same as the airlines do not really care about our cashflow problems.

Carpacchio

100% agree with you, but you see the parallels...

tgj1974

A data point, my TA said SN had sent all employees on technical unemployment, smart way to avoid refunds.....

Often1

Doesn't matter. Passengers will receive their refund via credit card chargeback and SN's CC holdback will go through the roof.

Andriyko

I do. It's called 'stealing.'
I hope that after this madness regulations will be put in place to hold the passengers' money in some sort of an escrow account until after the flights, so their monies are safeguarded, and the airlines finance themselves the way other businesses do. As much as I disagree with some regulations in EC261, this is where the passengers really need protections.

Often1

I'm not sure that escrow works. But, the reality is that so long as the lesson of this mess is that one only books directly with a carrier and only with a credit card or other financial instrument which has chargeback or equivalent under local law, it is relatively pain free.

AnttiV

Cancelled two tickets on 21st of March and still haven't received a refund so just called and was told it will be refunded but it could take two months or even longer.

SK AAR

I have read your posts in this thread. Clearly you have little understanding of how airlines operates/their business case. The only reason airlines can operate is because you pay for your ticket in advance. Your idea of an escrow account is nonsense. If you want bankruptcy protection pay by credit card or buy your ticket in jurisdictions where bankruptcy insurance protection is offered/mandatory.

You talk about stealing, theft etc; harsh and rude words IMO. I believe most readers in this thread understand that it is a unprecedented situation we are in - and expecting that LH will be able to deal with all refund requests within the usual time frames is unreasonable (and without due understanding of the struggles that airlines are facing currently). You will get your refund but you need to be patient; also much more than 8 days as suggested above.

nufnuf77

I see what you say but it breaches the current laws.

If the business model doesnt allow adherence to law and customer protections, then the model does not work. They either need to insure for this risk or increase ticket prices so they have sufficient reserves. It's not my problem they cant get me from A to B. I bought 3 tickets for approx 3k gbp each to get my wife to me and all were cancelled. Are you suggesting I should be out of pocket for 9-10k gbp for a few months? that i should be bearing the credit card interest or lost investment opportunity just because i bought a ticket that 36 hours later got cancelled with no replacement until June 1? wake up...

Andriyko

Thank you for opinion about my little understanding of how the airlines operate. I do actually know how they operate. You seem to have little understanding of how the laws work. It should not be up to us to finance the airlines for free. There are credit facilities available for that. If the current business model does not allow the airlines to honour their obligations towards the passengers then they should change it and operate how other businesses do. Nothing stops the airlines from asking their shareholders for more cash or from getting loans from banks. They just choose not to because it is cheaper to hold money from the passengers for free.

And there is nothing nonsensical about an escrow type arrangement for the airlines (which I hope we'll come to after this). Many businesses operate without taking money in advance. I don't see a single reason why the airlines can't. Even in the travel industry we can look at hotels and see that they often take payment at check-in and finance their operating expenses by other means. I understand the circumstances, I just don't understand why the obligation to help should be on passengers rather than the airlines. Many businesses are struggling now. Many had to close and have no revenues. They were just unlucky that they could not take money from us upfront. I honestly don't see why we should 'understand' the struggles of the airlines and not care of our own. It's bizarre to be told what to do with your own money or that some company needs your own money more than you do. I am sorry but I disagree with what you are saying.

mmff

This is the crux of the issue. They choose to do it because governments in Europe have likely assured them that there will be no consequences after the dust settles.

It's incredible how much more protected consumers are in the USA than in Europe. This behavior would constitute ground for a massive class-action suit in America, yet European airlines casually ignore the law (see: EU Commission Notice C(2020) 1830) with full impunity.

As mentioned several times already in this thread, file a chargeback request with your credit card provider 7 days after you requested the refund.

oliver2002

The airlines still have to accrue for the refunds they are due to passengers, so delaying the payout doesn't help from a financial perspective.

The bailouts airlines will receive is to cover wage payments and servicing their loan contracts. LH is covered for wage by the German system of kurzarbeit and has no leased aircraft to speak of (only the EW longhaul A330s are leased).

Carpacchio

Do they really have to accrue them in a cash account, or just on the balance sheet ?
That's what I meant before when I talked about difference between P&L and cash flow: you can leave them on the balance sheet and draw down your cash for items you consider more urgent - and once money comes in again, you can start paying back the refunds...

dcmike

I received the following email from Austrian about my refund request (it goes through a form also used for comments):