Covid19: LH and Credit Card - Disputes/Chargebacks
May 23, 2020, 10:37 pm
#31
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: PRN
Programs: LH HON* || HH Diamond || Accor Gold
Posts: 1,271
Back to the topic, Ukrainian legislation does not prohibit having accounts in foreign banks or foreign currencies to residents of the country. Anyone can freely open an account in a foreign bank, whether it is located in Ukraine or abroad if the bank grants permission to. Indeed, most banks require that an account holder resides in the country where the bank operates, but exceptions exist, too, such as UNFCU.
Last edited by totti; May 23, 2020 at 11:18 pm
May 23, 2020, 10:55 pm
#32
Join Date: May 2007
Programs: UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 5,451
Seems like a similar situation as the one being discussed in this thread: LH's creative thinking to reject a chargeback.
May 24, 2020, 1:30 am
#33
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
Posts: 4,163
Which credit card is this?
Your card issuer should not accept this BS from Lufthansa. This is clearly more delaying tactics aimed at buying time until the bailout cash is available. Another sign that the company is technically insolvent.
We somehow need Lufthansa to be legally instructed to repay these tickets. I am thinking along the lines of the recent injunction requiring them to rebook cancelled flights and not insist on additional upfaring.
Your card issuer should not accept this BS from Lufthansa. This is clearly more delaying tactics aimed at buying time until the bailout cash is available. Another sign that the company is technically insolvent.
We somehow need Lufthansa to be legally instructed to repay these tickets. I am thinking along the lines of the recent injunction requiring them to rebook cancelled flights and not insist on additional upfaring.
May 24, 2020, 1:37 am
#34
Join Date: Apr 2018
Programs: KLM Flying Blue Platinum, Hilton Honors Platinum
Posts: 42
Just pressure your bank (Chase in this example) to do the chargeback. A merchant can’t reject a chargeback since its a button that your issuer needs to push. Hence Chase also needs to validate your claim, but this complies completely with the card scheme rules (VISA in this example).
May 24, 2020, 1:46 am
#35
Join Date: Apr 2018
Programs: KLM Flying Blue Platinum, Hilton Honors Platinum
Posts: 42
Unfortunately it is not to decide for Lufthansa if they will accept the chargeback, your issuing bank decides this. As it is your full right to chargeback the amount, pressure your bank to issue the chargeback.
Chase seems to have a way to start a dialogue with the merchant prior to submit the chargeback, but in these clear cases your
money should be back on your account quickly. If Lufthansa doesn’t agree they can dispute the chargeback, which they will loose based on card scheme rules.
The larger picture is that if all chargebacks are instantly being submitted, several airlines would go bankrupt. The acquiring bank is then liable for all chargebacks, which could be the same bank as your issuer..... Just pressure your issuer for the chargeback.
Chase seems to have a way to start a dialogue with the merchant prior to submit the chargeback, but in these clear cases your
money should be back on your account quickly. If Lufthansa doesn’t agree they can dispute the chargeback, which they will loose based on card scheme rules.
The larger picture is that if all chargebacks are instantly being submitted, several airlines would go bankrupt. The acquiring bank is then liable for all chargebacks, which could be the same bank as your issuer..... Just pressure your issuer for the chargeback.
May 24, 2020, 2:23 am
#36
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,729
I heard from a friend in the credit card industry that many card issues have decided not to do process Chargeback against airlines as they realised their power and cash impact to keep airlines afloat and preferred not to loose the future business. Simple business decision. Sucks for us passengers, great for airlines. Chase at least accepted your claim. Amex Germany also told me on their Hotline that they don't accept any Chargeback against airlines, decision from the top-down.
My legal insurance took on the case and is now sending letters. They are hesitant to go to court, especially outside their own country. They said they would if need be but as a last resort and after several months of other actions having failed. They got a letter back confirming the refund is being processed mentioning processing tines of three months. They don't want to fight this, winning would take longer so I just have to wait and hope bankruptcy does not get filed.
My legal insurance took on the case and is now sending letters. They are hesitant to go to court, especially outside their own country. They said they would if need be but as a last resort and after several months of other actions having failed. They got a letter back confirming the refund is being processed mentioning processing tines of three months. They don't want to fight this, winning would take longer so I just have to wait and hope bankruptcy does not get filed.
May 24, 2020, 3:11 am
#37
Join Date: Apr 2018
Programs: KLM Flying Blue Platinum, Hilton Honors Platinum
Posts: 42
I heard from a friend in the credit card industry that many card issues have decided not to do process Chargeback against airlines as they realised their power and cash impact to keep airlines afloat and preferred not to loose the future business. Simple business decision. Sucks for us passengers, great for airlines. Chase at least accepted your claim. Amex Germany also told me on their Hotline that they don't accept any Chargeback against airlines, decision from the top-down.
My legal insurance took on the case and is now sending letters. They are hesitant to go to court, especially outside their own country. They said they would if need be but as a last resort and after several months of other actions having failed. They got a letter back confirming the refund is being processed mentioning processing tines of three months. They don't want to fight this, winning would take longer so I just have to wait and hope bankruptcy does not get filed.
My legal insurance took on the case and is now sending letters. They are hesitant to go to court, especially outside their own country. They said they would if need be but as a last resort and after several months of other actions having failed. They got a letter back confirming the refund is being processed mentioning processing tines of three months. They don't want to fight this, winning would take longer so I just have to wait and hope bankruptcy does not get filed.
In closing, their should not be any concern about bankruptcy because that does not prevent a consumer from have successfully disputed a transaction. It will only come out of the pockets from the acquiring bank, who has credit mechanisms in place to mitigate the risks towards the airline.
May 24, 2020, 4:53 am
#39
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: C2
Programs: TK*G (Elite+)
Posts: 436
I heard from a friend in the credit card industry that many card issues have decided not to do process Chargeback against airlines as they realised their power and cash impact to keep airlines afloat and preferred not to loose the future business. Simple business decision. Sucks for us passengers, great for airlines. Chase at least accepted your claim. Amex Germany also told me on their Hotline that they don't accept any Chargeback against airlines, decision from the top-down.
May 24, 2020, 11:34 am
#40
Join Date: Nov 2016
Programs: LH FT, AA Plat
Posts: 198
These credit card companies, banks and merchants can write whatever they want, regarding LH, EU trade policy still applies and refunds are mandatory. The EU Commission has already issued "reminders" to all EU members saying they can't prevent people from receiving a monetary refund (forcing people to take a voucher has no legal grounds), it's EU commerce law. All these companies are doing is postponing the inevitable, they'll lose in court every single time.
May 24, 2020, 1:08 pm
#41
Join Date: May 2015
Location: RBA / TBS
Programs: AF Gold / Accor Gold / Hilton Diamond / TP Silver / A3 Gold
Posts: 2,746
That's exactly how it is. They both show us the middle finger. Even Visa in their updated policy says they will reject the chargeback in case flight is cancelled due to government restrictions.
only category they are afraid of are prosecutors
Hope the card schemes will support their card holders, especially if you pay up to EUR 600 annual fee to get purchase protection (the rules are actually always the same, as mandated by card schemes but point being that a premium card product should support card holders more and not simply decline their claim based on false grounds)..
Fun fact , if you are not happy, then your choices are limited as this industry works as an oligopolistic cartel and they tend to move as clones
Last edited by fifty_two; May 24, 2020 at 1:16 pm
May 24, 2020, 1:22 pm
#42
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: C2
Programs: TK*G (Elite+)
Posts: 436
These credit card companies, banks and merchants can write whatever they want, regarding LH, EU trade policy still applies and refunds are mandatory. The EU Commission has already issued "reminders" to all EU members saying they can't prevent people from receiving a monetary refund (forcing people to take a voucher has no legal grounds), it's EU commerce law. All these companies are doing is postponing the inevitable, they'll lose in court every single time.
May 24, 2020, 2:29 pm
#43
Join Date: Nov 2016
Programs: LH FT, AA Plat
Posts: 198
Holding a 99€ ticket a passenger has other interesting things to do rather than taking an airline to the court. Airlines realize it, that's why they will postpone the refunds for months. And I guess majority of us have rather hundreds than thousands frozen and will not take a hassle to sue an airline.
May 25, 2020, 3:06 am
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
Hi,
I wanted to share my experience with a chargeback for Lufthansa with Chase.
Their current tactic seems to be to completely ignore the fact that they canceled the flight and blame it on travel restrictions:
"Passenger was unable to fly irrespective of the merchant's willingness to travel."
10.01.2020 Booked First Class Flight KBP-JNB with LH for 16.04.2020
22.03.2020 Checked booking constantly and found out that LX cancelled my inbound flight, both LH and LX at that time already stopped notifying people about cancelled flights because of overwhelmed call centres (scandal in itself) so I have no email but made screenshots of the booking status and also e-ticket with flight status cancelled
22.03.2020 Called LH first and they cancelled the ticket saying a full refund would be no problem but could take a bit longer (legally they are obliged for 7 days).
I only received a short mail saying that “the booking has been cancelled” but not stating any refund or the fact that it was cancelled because the flight has been cancelled by the airline.
06.04.2020 Disputed Charge with Chase (made with Sapphire Reserve Visa Credit) on the basis that the promised refund did not hit my bank account within 14 days although legal requirement is 7 days
23.05.2020 LH denied chargeback on the basis that South Africa closed borders on April 1st and I would not have been able to enter.
It’s quite stunning they use this tactic given that the flight has been cancelled on March 22nd (maybe even earlier) before the travel restrictions where even in place. The flight also never operated (so far to their "merchant willingness to travel").
Would you try and dispute the charge again?
Thanks,
Tokyonson
I wanted to share my experience with a chargeback for Lufthansa with Chase.
Their current tactic seems to be to completely ignore the fact that they canceled the flight and blame it on travel restrictions:
"Passenger was unable to fly irrespective of the merchant's willingness to travel."
10.01.2020 Booked First Class Flight KBP-JNB with LH for 16.04.2020
22.03.2020 Checked booking constantly and found out that LX cancelled my inbound flight, both LH and LX at that time already stopped notifying people about cancelled flights because of overwhelmed call centres (scandal in itself) so I have no email but made screenshots of the booking status and also e-ticket with flight status cancelled
22.03.2020 Called LH first and they cancelled the ticket saying a full refund would be no problem but could take a bit longer (legally they are obliged for 7 days).
I only received a short mail saying that “the booking has been cancelled” but not stating any refund or the fact that it was cancelled because the flight has been cancelled by the airline.
06.04.2020 Disputed Charge with Chase (made with Sapphire Reserve Visa Credit) on the basis that the promised refund did not hit my bank account within 14 days although legal requirement is 7 days
23.05.2020 LH denied chargeback on the basis that South Africa closed borders on April 1st and I would not have been able to enter.
It’s quite stunning they use this tactic given that the flight has been cancelled on March 22nd (maybe even earlier) before the travel restrictions where even in place. The flight also never operated (so far to their "merchant willingness to travel").
Would you try and dispute the charge again?
Thanks,
Tokyonson
Is there an arbitration scheme which would cover this secondary dispute with the way you credit card company is handling your request for assistance?
I believe that here in UK our financial ombudsman fills such a role.
The dispute/chargeback route follows service regulations established and defined by the credit card companies. Parallel to this could be a legal framework (here it is the Consumer Credit Act 1974) which holds merchant and credit provider jointly responsible if things go wrong, in this case breach of contract by the airline. Meaning that you can, essentially, sue the Visas et al for the contractural carelessness of Lufthansa. It's a more difficult route, but include the possibility of claiming consequential losses - which, who knows, might include irrecoverable deposits for accommodation, car hire etc