Old Jul 29, 20, 12:54 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: oliver2002
If any of your flights in the reservation are cancelled or changed significantly, you can change/refund the ticket as per the section 4.1.2 in this document: https://www.lufthansaexperts.com/shared/files/lufthansa/public/mcms/folder_102/folder_3625/file_143775.pdf
If you still want to fly as (re)booked after a schedule change, you need to reconfirm the reservation with a certain number of days as show here: https://www.lufthansaexperts.com/shared/files/lufthansa/public/mcms/folder_102/folder_3625/file_147814.pdf

If you want to change your ticket due to the uncertanty associated with the Covid 19 pandemic, two kinds of waivers are available which are explained here: https://www.lufthansaexperts.com/shared/files/lufthansa/public/mcms/folder_102/folder_3625/file_147655.pdf

Any changes are best done by the agency that booked your ticket. If you booked directly with LH they will handle the rebooking/reissue and/or refunds. This should be done by calling in. Online functionality of LH.com is rather poor.
Print Wikipost

Covid19: LH Group general waiver to rebook flights

Old Mar 19, 20, 1:51 am
  #151  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
Programs: Star Alliance Gold (A3 Gold), Oneworld Emerald (BA Gold), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,217
Originally Posted by Hydro88 View Post
Where are they saying that, though?
What the EU has said can be interpreted as meaning that the airline can decide, not the passenger. We will have to see if other airlines, such as Aegean, interpret it that way. I have 2 bookings with cancelled flights, one with Austrian and one with Virgin, so we will see.
headingwest is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 2:00 am
  #152  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: BRU
Programs: Miles and More SEN; BA Exec Club Silver
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by headingwest View Post
What the EU has said can be interpreted as meaning that the airline can decide, not the passenger. We will have to see if other airlines, such as Aegean, interpret it that way. I have 2 bookings with cancelled flights, one with Austrian and one with Virgin, so we will see.
I think the key thing to remember is to read these interpretative guidelines alongside the Regulation. Doing that, it's clear that the passenger ultimately makes the decision on whether to accept re-routing or refund. Any airline which refuses to refund in cancellation of their flight will face a world of trouble.Interpretative guidelines are there to remind airlines of their obligations and clarify how they are applied in these extraordinary circumstances. They do not supplant the Regulation itself. And in my reading, it makes clear that if an airline cancels, offering a voucher alone is not an option. Passengers must be offered a full refund if the airline cancels their flight. No ifs, no buts.
Hydro88 likes this.
ChrisBub is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 2:02 am
  #153  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
Programs: Star Alliance Gold (A3 Gold), Oneworld Emerald (BA Gold), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,217
Originally Posted by ChrisBub View Post
I think the key thing to remember is to read these interpretative guidelines alongside the Regulation. Doing that, it's clear that the passenger ultimately makes the decision on whether to accept re-routing or refund. Any airline which refuses to refund in cancellation of their flight will face a world of trouble.Interpretative guidelines are there to remind airlines of their obligations and clarify how they are applied in these extraordinary circumstances. They do not supplant the Regulation itself. And in my reading, it makes clear that if an airline cancels, offering a voucher alone is not an option. Passengers must be offered a full refund if the airline cancels their flight. No ifs, no buts.
Read section 9 and 11

https://en.about.aegeanair.com/media...r-flexibility/

I think we will be seeing a lot more of this type of thing in the next few days.
headingwest is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 2:28 am
  #154  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: BRU
Programs: Miles and More SEN; BA Exec Club Silver
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by headingwest View Post
Read section 9 and 11

https://en.about.aegeanair.com/media...r-flexibility/

I think we will be seeing a lot more of this type of thing in the next few days.
Well, if they can get away with these types of misdirection in their COVID guidance, they'll continue to do it and they are within their rights to offer vouchers, but you are not obliged to accept that.

In your case, the guidelines and the Reg make clear that passengers must be offered full refund of ticket price. Just request full reimbursement from A3 if and when the flight is cancelled. They cannot legally refuse. If they try, just quote the below articles from the regulation at them (and point towards Commission's statement on it).

The Commissioner's statement says explicitly that airlines must rebook or reimburse passengers. That reimbursement can be in the form of a travel voucher, but only if the passenger agrees. If not, they must be offered a refund for the full ticket price. See https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres...l/en/ip_20_485

So Aegean and many other airlines will need to update their policy or risk court cases which they are certain to lose given these guidelines read in conjunction with the Regulation. See below the relevant excerpts - bolding mine. The key thing is that passengers, if they want a full reimbursement of the price, must not accept the travel voucher option (which the airline is free to offer)

From excerpts of EU261:Article 5:

1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall:

(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; and
Article 8:

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,

- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;

(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.

3. The compensation referred to in paragraph 1 shall be paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other services.
ChrisBub is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 2:32 am
  #155  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
Programs: Star Alliance Gold (A3 Gold), Oneworld Emerald (BA Gold), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,217
Thanks ChrisBuB, I hope you are right. But it does cause concern when airlines act like this, they seem to be using the COVID-19 problem as an excuse to get out of their obligations.

We all know that they are desperately trying to hold on to their cash.
mmff and ChrisBub like this.
headingwest is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 2:46 am
  #156  
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN**
Posts: 45,412
So far the LH Group has been refunding all tickets that have any cancelled segments without much protest. As they are currently looking for some form of state aid they are unlikely to piss off the tax paying public. Also they are currently excuting the largest repatriation of ~100k stranded Germans all over the world, paid for by the German Foreign Office. The results of FY 2019 with billions of EBIT that was announced today also indicate that they have decent cash reserves. Unlike like the smaller zombie airlines in Europe that were on the brink even before Covid19.
JudgeJ, mmff, headingwest and 3 others like this.
oliver2002 is online now  
Old Mar 19, 20, 4:17 am
  #157  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: 1 thousand
Posts: 2,110
Originally Posted by IAN-UK View Post
A Lufthansa issued ticket includes a Thai sector with a TG flight number. TG has cancelled that flight and booked me on the same one two days' later (TG were kind enough to message me about it, LH said nothing).

I'm pretty sure this cancellation puts me in the happy position of being able to scrap the ticket and get my money back without a fuss, but the Thai involvement dilutes my confidence just a little.
Not necessarily: ticketing carrier is irrelevant. Operating carrier is Thai: they are not an EU airline, hence not by default subject to EC261.

IF this was a Thai flight departing EU/CH/Norway, then the flight is covered by EC261, and Thai would have to refund you the entire ticket cost. If not, no luck.

I'm in a similar yet different situation: United ticket, first flight is an LH flight which was cancelled, replaced by another LH flight which was cancelled more recently. I've contacted LH (online form) in an attempt to get a refund, haven't received any response yet. Planning to try registered mail as the next option.
televisor is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 4:55 am
  #158  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,625
Originally Posted by headingwest View Post
Looks like it might be a big stitch up by the EU in favour of the airlines. What a surprise!
The EU has just confirmed that these cancellations would NOT be considered extraordinary circumstances, so no compensation payable. No change to the cancellation rules - if the airline cancels you can get a refund or rebooking, if you cancel it is dependent on the fare conditions.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres...l/en/IP_20_485

The policy of Aegean is illegal (though maybe in some cases understandable as I'm sure free available cash is very low at the moment).
mmff and headingwest like this.
8420PR is online now  
Old Mar 19, 20, 5:08 am
  #159  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: 1 thousand
Posts: 2,110
Originally Posted by 8420PR View Post
The EU has just confirmed that these cancellations would NOT be considered extraordinary circumstances, so no compensation payable. No change to the cancellation rules - if the airline cancels you can get a refund or rebooking, if you cancel it is dependent on the fare conditions..
The guidance pretty much confirms that it's extraordinary when there's no point in a flight operating because de-facto no one (or only citizens of one country) can travel. Indeed, no compensation payable - but that's because these ARE extraordinary circumstances (whereas you seem to claim otherwise).
televisor is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 5:21 am
  #160  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,080
Originally Posted by oliver2002 View Post
So far the LH Group has been refunding all tickets that have any cancelled segments without much protest. As they are currently looking for some form of state aid they are unlikely to piss off the tax paying public. Also they are currently excuting the largest repatriation of ~100k stranded Germans all over the world, paid for by the German Foreign Office. The results of FY 2019 with billions of EBIT that was announced today also indicate that they have decent cash reserves. Unlike like the smaller zombie airlines in Europe that were on the brink even before Covid19.
They could have kept operating to Poland after the so-called ban than abandoning many Germans stuck here and bring Poles back who were checked in and ready to fly.

KLM continue to fly, even now.
hugolover is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 5:29 am
  #161  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: AMS, JFK/EWR/LGA
Programs: Flying Blue/Platinum, TK/Elite Plus, QR/Platinum, LH/FTL, Marriott/Platinum
Posts: 286
I've got a AMS-FRA-BUD and back next week canceled. Called to try to rebook to travel in July, the very nice agent told me that on the inbound K class still is available however on the outbound only T and no more K class, hence fare difference need to be charged. I was then quoted a fare difference of almost 100 euros for a ticket that originally costs 157 eur.

Can't help but think LH Group with the "different fare" and not even "booking class" approach really is hitting a new low, they can basically set the fare however they like, even a K-->K equation will incur fare difference if the new K base fare is 100 euros higher than the historical K base fare - this is confirmed by the agent. I know all airlines are in a difficult cash position right now, but capitalizing on a public health crisis and penalizing its customers who are desperate to rebook? I say LH has gone too far.

I opted for a full refund (well at least they still allow this when flights canceled - so long it lasts) - I just refuse to provide LH with an interest-free loan when they are going so low, but this just is my personal choice.
headingwest and Hydro88 like this.
newflyer530 is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 7:10 am
  #162  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,080
Yes the issue is that you can generally only rebook +/- three days into the window of the route operating again. They dont seem to have waived this.

I think you can be sure that LH will cancel these flights for a very very long time indeed. In which case, just leave the booking as is and rebook without the limitations of the booking classes when they return to a normalish schedule.

The refund will always be an option and Im sure your credit card will be able to sort you out if LH go bust in the meantime.
hugolover is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 7:30 am
  #163  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: ST E+, *G, some hotel gold...
Posts: 4,968
Originally Posted by televisor View Post
Not necessarily: ticketing carrier is irrelevant. Operating carrier is Thai: they are not an EU airline, hence not by default subject to EC261.

IF this was a Thai flight departing EU/CH/Norway, then the flight is covered by EC261, and Thai would have to refund you the entire ticket cost. If not, no luck.

I'm in a similar yet different situation: United ticket, first flight is an LH flight which was cancelled, replaced by another LH flight which was cancelled more recently. I've contacted LH (online form) in an attempt to get a refund, haven't received any response yet. Planning to try registered mail as the next option.

The flight is counted as a complete flight from the community to Thailand, as one whole piece, including any and all connections involved. IAN-UK is therefore protected under EC261/2004.

If Thai decided not to play ball, IAN-UK can even go after Lufthansa directly as they are considered jointly responsible under Judgment in Case C-502/18 CS and Others v Česk aerolinie a.s with regards to compensation; while I understand that the compensation will not be payable in this case, I would consider it extremely unlikely that the courts would not extend this responsibility to refunds.
Fabo.sk is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 7:59 am
  #164  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: AMS, JFK/EWR/LGA
Programs: Flying Blue/Platinum, TK/Elite Plus, QR/Platinum, LH/FTL, Marriott/Platinum
Posts: 286
Originally Posted by hugolover View Post
Yes the issue is that you can generally only rebook +/- three days into the window of the route operating again. They dont seem to have waived this.

I think you can be sure that LH will cancel these flights for a very very long time indeed. In which case, just leave the booking as is and rebook without the limitations of the booking classes when they return to a normalish schedule.

The refund will always be an option and Im sure your credit card will be able to sort you out if LH go bust in the meantime.
I encourage everyone whose LH Group flights are canceled now to request a full refund, unless you can rebook now with a reasonable fare difference. If you leave the ticket open now and rebook later, you (1) lose your rights to a full refund and (2) run the risk of being forced to pay a humongous amount of fare difference when time comes to rebooking. LH Group seems to have already deliberately blocked many lower fare buckets (e.g., K/L/T and in some cases P) months into the future just so they can comfortably penalize customers who are desperate to rebook now when virtually no one is willing/able to travel. I can imagine availability will only get worse when flight operations are back to normal.

So get your money back while you still can and save yourself from future loss and stress.
newflyer530 is offline  
Old Mar 19, 20, 8:03 am
  #165  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,080
I'm partly agreeing with you. See my post on the SN thread. It seems LH now breaching EU law by not even allowing a free rebook to first available date unless RBD is the same as they are enforcing 3 day rule. Crazy in so many markets where they are not flying for weeks.
newflyer530 likes this.
hugolover is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread