Fabo.sk

Yes, that seems to be the mantra.
Somehow I have a feeling that people tend to forget that just beacuse a per-seat cost is lower, doesn't mean you can fill as many seats as you need. And flying A319 with 120 people is cheaper than flying A320 with 120 people...

fassy

Says who? I could imagine enough scenarios were a 319 with 120 people is more expensive to operate than a 320 with the same amount of pax. Without knowing the exact costs for operations and maintenance where synergy effects due to locking down on one model could be very well make a huge difference or how the planes were owned/leased/financed, hard to tell.

oliver2002

The SAS data on their A32S is interesting to compare the subtypes: https://www.sasgroup.net/about-sas/t...-a320neo-a321/

The A319 costs the same to operate as an A320 but carries ~20 less passengers. The engine is slightly different (CFM56-5B6/P on the OS A319 vs the CFM56-5B4/P on the A320s) so you have to keep a separate set of spares. etc etc.

klanfa

A319 is lighter, though, so some costs will be lower. As fassy said above, we can't really know all the details that come into play. Airlines have been getting rid of A319s over the past few years (in favor of A320s), so the A319s have been relatively cheap to acquire.

oliver2002

Unfortunately the 7 A319 that OS have (OE-LDA thru LDG) were part of a A32S order delivered in the early 2000s, so it was not 'cheap to aquire', but part of a package when Austrian was a stand alone airline in the 1990s.

Mozart0815

Miles & More still owes me more than $1300 in taxes & fees from award flights that were cancelled due to Covid.

Both Swiss and LH basically are being bailed out right now.

What do you think, what are the odds that I'll ever see that money again?

My current bet is close to 0%. Obviously, Germany has a strong national interest in keeping LH group alive, and Switzerland is still traumatized from the Swissair grounding, but apparently the German government is supportive of the freeze of refunds (which I believe is probably against EU law, but nobody seems to care in Covid times any more).

So I'm pretty skeptical regarding ever getting anything back. What do you think?

And I also wouldn't be surprised if my miles would become worthless eventually.

angelats

I've had three trips cancelled and I've been waiting for the money since March 18th. I've contacted my credit card provider to attempt a chargeback for two of them, but one was booked using direct debit.

Like you, I'm not hopeful. I was originally optimistic because the service centre employee assured me that I would receive a refund on my credit card, and I naively assumed it would be a matter of days, or a week at the most. I understand that things are difficult for LH right now, but I've already accepted vouchers for other cancelled trips and if I take a voucher for every one, I'll never be able to use them all in time. I find the lack of information the worst bit - it's really unprofessional and, as someone who is almost 100% loyal to LH, I'm starting to question whether I'll want to fly with them as much in the future.

airoli

Your chances of receiving back taxes and fees for M&M award tickets cancelled due to Covid-19 are excellent. These tickets are normally refundable against a nominal fee anyways. I would not be worried. I had an award ticket cancelled due to the virus and taxes were back on my credit card within a week.

The big debate is about LH Group not refunding revenue ticket fares and instead issuing vouchers. That's a different story.

Mozart0815

Unfortunately you are incorrect:

https://www.miles-and-more.com/ch/en...r-service.html

Miles and more now only talks about an undefined "later date" even for award tickets. I called the Senator hotline and the poor guy could just refer me to the website.

"We kindly ask for your understanding that due to the current situation refunds will be processed at a later time. We will inform you proactively on the Miles & More website once we restart the refund process."

Often1

This sounds like incompetence and the failure to properly automate systems which are 10-years behind the times. LH does not get to keep those funds so it has no incentive to foot drag.

Initiating a chargeback is the proper way to go. EC 261/2004 requires LH to reimburse (refund) within 7 days to the original form of payment and the taxes & fees should have been paid out by the 8th day.

While there are some countries with limited protections for other forms of bank payment, it always pays to use a credit card and then use the bank funds to pay that off if that is what you want to do.

Mozart0815

I don't think this is incompetence. This is a voluntary decision by LH management to not pay out any money while they are on the brink of bankruptcy and will require bail out money.

airoli

Interesting. That wasn't the policy when my award ticket was cancelled a few weeks ago.

But even now, that webpage confirms that if an award ticket is cancelled due to the airline not operating the flight, you are eligibile for a full refund of miles and cash, just "later". In the case of revenue flights, LH Group does not acknowledge the refund possibility and pushes you towards accepting vouchers. Here, they don't.

I still would not be worried about getting taxes etc. back. Just be patient.

Often1

This is cash which LH does not get to keep. Either it is refunded to the passenger or paid over to the appropriate taxing authorities.

The bailout is fine. It will be funded by German taxpayers pro rata rather by every poor sod who happens to have an open ticket and does not feel as though lending LH cash at 0% interest is in his interest.

Mozart0815

It really all depends to how bad the situation still gets. So far their business is really close to zero and nobody has any idea how long this situation will last.

oliver2002

So far LH has not received any bailout as far as I know. They are in talks but the German government as well as LH cannot agree on the terms. Could you point me to the info?